Cost of operating "legacy" LSA

[drseti]

PS - for a great overview of the whole prebuy issue, see Mike Busch's excellent webinar on the topic, at eaa.org/webinars.

[FastEddieB]

A prebuy is not an annual.

When I had prebuys done, I had them done as annuals, even if not due.

If they turned up something major, money well spent avoiding a turkey.

If something minor, a negotiating point.

And, of course, a fresh annual!

[drseti]

There's a problem with that, Eddie. When I do a prebuy, my customer isn't the owner of the plane. I work for the buyer, but when doing an annual, I'm working for the owner. Could be a conflict of interest here.

Once an annual is begun, the plane cannot be flown again until it's completed, with all airworthiness squawks cleared. Say you convince the seller to let you fly the plane to my shop for a prebuy, and I start an annual. I find a major problem, and am obligated to ground the airplane. Could require thousands of dollars to clear the issue. So, you walk away from the deal, leaving somebody else's plane in my hangar, in pieces and unairworthy. I can't clear the squawks and sign off the annual unless the owner contracts me to do so, the owner can't fly the plane home, and I'm not getting paid. I can't even exercise a mechanic's lein against the plane, since the owner didn't sign my work order!
No, I should only do an annual for the person who owns the plane, not someone who is maybe (or maybe not) about tp buy it.

OTOH, if I do a good prebuy, and then you purchase the plane, after the deal closes you can bring it back to me for.a half-price fresh annual, since I've already done half the work.

[FastEddieB]

Interesting perspective from the mechanic's side - had not thought of some of the issues.

I think every time I paid for an annual as a pre-buy, we consummated the deal, so it was not a factor.

Could not a mechanic start a nondescript "inspection", following the manufacturer's checklist, then if something is found just end it right there? Or if nothing major is found, then just call it an annual and sign it off?*

BTW, when I bought my Tiger the owner let me fly it from Tampa to Opa Locka for the inspection. I remember being presented with a list of 40+ "discrepancies" and my heart sank. But then the mechanic told me the vast majority was minor/cosmetic stuff and there were just a few items that were actually significant. Negotiated over those and bought the plane and it was a great little bird!


*Just reread your post, and that's very close to what you recommended!

[drseti]

Could not a mechanic start a nondescript "inspection", following the manufacturer's checklist, then if something is found just end it right there? Or if nothing major is found, then just call it an annual and sign it off?

That's an interesting gray area, Eddie. "Inspection" is defined in FAR 1.1, and has a very specific legal meaning. So, a prebuy should not ever be referred to as an "inspection," but rather as an "examination." With that caveat, what you suggest is very common. It only gets converted to an inspection after the bill of sale is signed.

[drseti]

BTW, when I bought my Tiger the owner let me fly it from Tampa to Opa Locka for the inspection. I remember being presented with a list of 40+ "discrepancies" and my heart sank.

When I do a prebuy, I'm mainly looking for deal-breakers. Minor discrepancies are expected when you're buying a used anything. It's OK to provide the buyer with a list of things to think about after buying a plane, but generally these shouldn't become a factor in the purchasing decision. After all, a used plane is sold "as is." Normal wear and tear is expected.

[MrMorden]

I would assume that a mechanic performing an annual is working for whoever cuts the check.

Why would we assume a mechanic is working for the owner of the airplane? There is no conflict of interest; both parties have a vested interest in making sure the airplane is airworthy and any squawks are addressed. A conflict of interest can only occur when two parties have opposing interests.

The only conflict can occur if the buyer is intentionally trying to conceal defects. In that case, the mechanic's duty is to the truth of the condition of the airframe, in other words, the buyer. To do otherwise puts liability squarely on the mechanic.

[CTLSi]

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[SportPilot]

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[drseti]

There was an EAA webinar last month that explained all the reasons you would never have an annual inspection serve as a pre-purchase examination.

That's the one by Mike Busch that I was referring to. Here's the link:

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=3767478628001

[drseti]

I would assume that a mechanic performing an annual is working for whoever cuts the check.

Actually, I work for whoever signs the work order. That document is a legal contract, which (in the case of a condition inspection) encumbers the aircraft. Therefore, for an annual, it should only be signed by someone who actually owns the aircraft! In the case of the prebuy, as it's not an inspection, there is no encumbrance of property, so I do indeed then work for the buyer.

[drseti]

Since we've been discussing prebuy examinations here --

I've put together some of my thoughs about prebuys in an article on my website:

http://avsport.org/maint/prebuy.htm

Feedback and constructive criticism are always welcome.

[Wm.Ince]

Since we've been discussing prebuy examinations here --

I've put together some of my thoughs about prebuys in an article on my website:

http://avsport.org/maint/prebuy.htm

Feedback and constructive criticism are always welcome.

Good stuff.
Thank you.

[3Dreaming]

Back to the original question. One thing to remember most all of the classic LSA are 60-70 years old. As was mentioned earlier, find someone who is familiar with the type aircraft to take a look at it. Each of the old airplanes have their problem areas, but some are worse than others. Many of these aircraft have been restored in some fashion, take a look at what was done. The aircraft with steel tube fuselage construction have places that can rust causing problems. The aluminum aircraft can have hidden corrosion between layers of metal, that at times can not be seen until failure. Wooden structure can have rot or glue de-bonding of reinforcements. I just helped a fellow with the annual on a Cub. It needed a set of tires and tubes $800, wheel bearings $300, Exhaust stacks ?, Part of the lading gear tie strut and bungees ?, 2 aileron hinge brackets ?, and all the other normal stuff. This was an airplane that had not been maintained like it should, but it does give an example of things that can add up in maintenance of a classic LSA.