Looking for LSA Lease

[MrLupin]

Saturday I passed my SP check ride. I'm in the process of organizing a 501(c)(4) flight club. We have 8 members and are looking for 2 - 4 more. But, we need an airplane. We're agreed that now is the wrong time to buy an LSA given the uncertainty concerning what the FAA is going to do with the 3rd class medicals. Our options are to wait for the FAA or to attempt to find an LSA to lease - preferably a short-term lease. I recognize that this is probably a long shot but we want to try. Any suggestions as to how we might go about this? I've already downloaded owner registration details from the FAA for a number of LSA models (Remos, Skycatcher, CTLS, CTSW etc.) to contact the owners. This seems like a good initial step. What else, if anything, would you suggest? Of course if you know of an LSA that might be for lease I'd love to hear about that as well. Thanks!

[CTLSi]

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[MrLupin]

Saturday I passed my SP check ride. I'm in the process of organizing a 501(c)(4) flight club. We have 8 members and are looking for 2 - 4 more. But, we need an airplane. We're agreed that now is the wrong time to buy an LSA given the uncertainty concerning what the FAA is going to do with the 3rd class medicals. Our options are to wait for the FAA or to attempt to find an LSA to lease - preferably a short-term lease. I recognize that this is probably a long shot but we want to try. Any suggestions as to how we might go about this? I've already downloaded owner registration details from the FAA for a number of LSA models (Remos, Skycatcher, CTLS, CTSW etc.) to contact the owners. This seems like a good initial step. What else, if anything, would you suggest? Of course if you know of an LSA that might be for lease I'd love to hear about that as well. Thanks!

Don't hold your breath over the 3rd class medical decision, it is at least a year or more off. If you want an LSA, buy an LSA. I could sell my CTLSi today (I have a PP SEL) and get a certified 4-seater but I and my wife love the CTLSi and will fly it till we tire of it.

Agreed, not holding my breath. That's why we are looking at a lease. Of course, LSA owners are also probably watching what's happening and trying to figure out the best course of action - at least those who are thinking of selling their planes. I wish I could just go buy whatever I want but I have a few more years before I can sell my practice and buy. In the mean time, the practical course for me is to share costs in a club. I have considered buying an LSA and leasing it back to the club. That may be the route I go once the dust settles (once we know what is going to happen to the medical and to the prices of LSA aircraft.) Thanks for your comments.

[3Dreaming]

I don't think I would want to lease my LSA to a flying club.
If it were me rather than set it up as a 501c3, I would set it up as a corporation with the members as share holders. The buy in for shares would be your down payment, and monthly fees would pay the loan and fixed cost. Also include an hour or two in the monthly cost, and you could allow up to 6 hours to be saved for long trips. One more thing set the members up with automatic checking account withdraws to pay the monthly fees.

[Jack Tyler]

Mr. L, congrats on passing the check ride!

Altho' your group feels it wants to do something sooner vs. later, keep in mind that the next step in modifying the Class 3 requirements is publishing the draft NPRM. And that's going to happen sooner - the general view is sometime this fall - not later. Seeing the draft will give you a good feel for what the final rule will look like, since it will establish a 'floor' on what the FAA is willing to allow. Depending on what it proposes, we might also be able to judge whether a second comment period is going to be required vs. just the one that is required. In your shoes, I'd wait out the review by the DOT and issuance by the FAA.

[MrMorden]

I don't think I would want to lease my LSA to a flying club.

I have had a local flight school ask me twice if I wanted to put my CTSW on leaseback with them. I declined both times. Training and rental is very tough on airplanes, and renters have no incentive to treat your airplane well.

[Merlinspop]

I don't think I would want to lease my LSA to a flying club.

I have had a local flight school ask me twice if I wanted to put my CTSW on leaseback with them. I declined both times. Training and rental is very tough on airplanes, and renters have no incentive to treat your airplane well.

I would think that club members would be a little better about that, but I guess a lot depends on the club rules on damage and how they are enforced.

[MrMorden]

I would think that club members would be a little better about that, but I guess a lot depends on the club rules on damage and how they are enforced.

The best way would be to make the club members all co-owners and charge them a "share" that they could sell (with club approval of the buyer), then they have skin in the game.

[MrLupin]

I certainly understand the concern about leasing an aircraft to a flight club. Sometimes the attraction to a flight club, based on my research at least, is the ability to obtain flight training at significantly reduced costs. That said, the members we have so far are all experienced commercial pilots who want a less expensive way to fly for recreation, with myself as the single exception. Our plan, at this point is to not offer flight lessons. I understand this keeps insurance costs down somewhat. Having a club where members are co-owners does sound like a better path but that would require members who have sufficient finances. Some don't have the means to "buy-in." Depending in the availability of an aircraft to lease we may have to alter our plan towards a purchase and find a few more members with sufficient means. Just depends.

3Dreaming - I don't think we could set it up as a 501(c)(3) - that's a non-profit charity. We could set it up as a non-profit corp or a 501(c)(4) - at least that's what my research is telling me so far.

[CTLSi]

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[Wm.Ince]

. . . "Remember, it is possible for you to lose currency too." . . .

Did you really mean currency? Or proficiency?

[MrLupin]

MrLupin.

Suggest you first determine what 'mission' you have in regard to flying. That usually dictates the type of aircraft you will want to fly regularly. Even if the FAA changes the med rules do you really think you will want to fly an old Cessna 172? Or an old Mooney? You will still be spending $50k for a 30 year old aircraft with hundreds of hours on the engine. And you will be flying on more expensive 100LL.

Are you planning a lot of long cross country trips with four people? Or are you flying a few hundred miles or less from your home field with just you and another person?

Consider the old Cessna 172 is no faster, burns 4 to 5 times the fuel, is more narrow, and just as expensive to maintain as a newer LSA like a Flight Design CT.

The FAA is not a friend...in fact, they are breaking the law by delaying the Part 23 rewrite congress set for them for December 2014. They are THAT incompetent. Since you are a newly minted pilot, don't get bogged down in second guessing what the goofs at the FAA are gonna do. Go out and look at LSAs and pick one, and get flying.

Remember, it is possible for you to lose currency too. I fly every other day. And can go where and when I want....which ultimately s why you went to the trouble and expense in getting your certification to fly.

Good questions. Our flight club has multiple missions that I believe can all be met with one aircraft. A few of us want an airplane that we can fly with our spouses on 400 - 500 mile cross countries. 2 of us want to build night flight time as well as have an aircraft for local recreational flights. All of us want to minimize fixed and variable operating costs while still having access to a more modern plane. None of us need to get anywhere in a big hurry - 95 to 110 kts is sufficient for all of us. As far as I can tell, a newer LSA is the perfect match for our various purposes. An older 172 or similar plane hasn't really been on our radar due to the limitations you mentioned.

Regarding proficiency, I'm still flying with an instructor in the plane in which I've done most of my training - a Piper Archer. I need four more hours of dual instruction to meet the night and instrument requirements for the Private certificate. I need an additional 5 hours of solo which I'll get in an LSA if I can find one or which I'll get in the Archer once/if the FAA makes a change concerning the medical. I'm going to keep flying the Archer until we find the right LSA. It would be silly for me to spend all the money to get my certificate to then let my skills deteriorate. The hope is to indeed soon be able to go where and when I want. May take a little time but I'm going to make it happen one way or another.

[FastEddieB]

Consider the old Cessna 172 is no faster, burns 4 to 5 times the fuel...

I assume you misspoke.

A C172 burns about 8 gph or less.

I don't think the typical LSA burns 2 gph.

[CTLSi]

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[CTLSi]

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