Looking for LSA Lease

[MrLupin]

If you are planning on getting a PP SEL then you are not restricted to an LSA choice. You are free to get an old Cessna, a new Mooney, a new LSA, or a used one.

Yes, I am aware of that. My point, perhaps poorly made, was that an LSA appears to be the better choice regardless of certification. I don't know of a standard aircraft that has the performance/fuel burn combination of the Flight Design aircraft or a Remos GX (not quite as good on the fuel consumption but still much better than a 172).

[FastEddieB]

Comparing apples to apples.

No, it's pointing out a glaring error.

Your statement was factually incorrect.

The normal response would be to recognize and admit the error.

But the only way I get that response from you is if I compose it myself.

But for anyone paying attention, a Cessna 172 does not, in fact, use "4 or 5 times the fuel" of an LSA.

And the comparison further breaks down when you factor in the 172 can carry twice the passenger load.

[CTLSi]

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[CTLSi]

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[CharlieTango]

I used to have a 172 with 180 hp STC. It used less than twice what my Rotax uses. 9 gal/hr vs 5 gal/hr

[3Dreaming]

The Continental 0-300 in a 172 runs just fine on 87 octane auto fuel, with a STC to make it legal. Oh, it also ony burns 8 to 8.5 gallons per hour. By my calculation that is just about double your 912Si. Oh I forgot to mention that the 87 octane fuel is cheaper than the 91 that you need for your engine, and is available at more airports too.

[Jack Tyler]

MrL, you may well have a set of circumstances that nicely fit a S-LSA choice. Lots of potential Club members which suggests low acquisition cost per person, a shared desire for a turn-key or 'easy' flight experience (maintenance and ACI's no doubt contracted out to a local shop on the field), and you make it sound like some organizational details (legal status of the Club) and finding the right a/c stand between your group and recreational flying. However, I wonder if things are as far along as you might think.

1. Mission: "Our flight club has multiple missions that I believe can all be met with one aircraft. A few of us want an airplane that we can fly with our spouses on 400 - 500 mile cross countries..." If you are describing one-way distances, that sounds like some of you want overnight trips, which raises the questions of what are those couples' combined crew weights and also baggage requirements. Related to this, how many are 'requiring' a chute for the a/c? A realistic consideration of the necessary useful load might help you narrow down your choices...or perhaps they already have.

2. In my experience (forming one partnership and attempting to form another) there is a surprising gap between what a larger group of folks claim they want to do and the actual group, as the details are refined, who are willing to commit specific funds while agreeing to a specific set of guidelines. And I mean 'surprising gap'! Perhaps while you're searching for your a/c, you might spend some time hammering out the details and even collecting refundable membership deposits (which all by itself raises the necessary issues of trust and oversight). My belief is doing so will move you quickly to a more realistic idea of who's in the game. A couple of specific ways to do this, if you haven't already: 1) Download the draft a/c 'co-ownership' agreement available from AOPA and then, from it, create & discuss a straw man of the Club's structure, rules and restrictions. This usually generates some healthy discussion that you must face sooner or later, and it will weed out some folks who simply haven't walked very far down the reality path of what it means to share an a/c. Grass strips ok? Gravel/dirt? Want to stipulate a minimum runway length? (How will you handle an 'oops' when a member ignores such restrictions?) Minimum LSA hours to be a member? Minimum hours over what time period for currency? How will the schedule be handled, what will the # of flight days for a given member size look like, how will you accommodate the inevitable requests to make extended use of that single a/c during member vacation periods? Working thru the details will help the interested parties to get better acquainted, it might refine your preferred a/c choice, and I think I can guarantee you it will winnow out some folks, which is helpful to know sooner vs. later. That draft agreement is a helpful place to start, even if it's only a start.

3. Money: As part of this 'reality check', building up a sample budget that identifies the commitment each interested party needs to commit to, including an initial deposit, will probably be eye-opening for some. And it's work you'll need to do sooner or later anyway. My experience: Doing it sooner is more helpful. AOPA has a very thorough, 'canned' a/c ownership spreadsheet you can download and then just plug in numbers to the various cells (or ignore the ones that don't apply). It doesn't have to be totally accurate nor be 'complete' to foster useful discussion. And playing 'what if' with some of the assumptions - acquisition cost e.g. - will foster a more realistic discussion of a/c decisions (dual displays really necessary?).

Basically, I'm asking to what degree you (all of you, that is) are working from a concept vs. having done enough homework to have a viable membership group. The devil's in the details and you may be further away from simply finding an a/c than it appears. And of course all of this is just intended as food for thought. Good luck to you.

[Merlinspop]

The Continental 0-300 in a 172 runs just fine on 87 octane auto fuel, with a STC to make it legal....

And is smooth like butter!

[Jack Tyler]

Noticed this in AOPA's ePilot this morning:

Webinar
Club aircraft: Experimental or LSA?

Can an experimental or light sport aircraft be a good addition to your flying club? Learn about the benefits and pitfalls of incorporating these and other types of aircraft into your club during a webinar scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 24, at 8 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time.

If you'd like to register for the webinar, you go here: https://goto.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1041421

[MrLupin]

MrL, you may well have a set of circumstances that nicely fit a S-LSA choice. Lots of potential Club members which suggests low acquisition cost per person, a shared desire for a turn-key or 'easy' flight experience (maintenance and ACI's no doubt contracted out to a local shop on the field), and you make it sound like some organizational details (legal status of the Club) and finding the right a/c stand between your group and recreational flying. However, I wonder if things are as far along as you might think.

1. Mission: "Our flight club has multiple missions that I believe can all be met with one aircraft. A few of us want an airplane that we can fly with our spouses on 400 - 500 mile cross countries..." If you are describing one-way distances, that sounds like some of you want overnight trips, which raises the questions of what are those couples' combined crew weights and also baggage requirements. Related to this, how many are 'requiring' a chute for the a/c? A realistic consideration of the necessary useful load might help you narrow down your choices...or perhaps they already have.

2. In my experience (forming one partnership and attempting to form another) there is a surprising gap between what a larger group of folks claim they want to do and the actual group, as the details are refined, who are willing to commit specific funds while agreeing to a specific set of guidelines. And I mean 'surprising gap'! Perhaps while you're searching for your a/c, you might spend some time hammering out the details and even collecting refundable membership deposits (which all by itself raises the necessary issues of trust and oversight). My belief is doing so will move you quickly to a more realistic idea of who's in the game. A couple of specific ways to do this, if you haven't already: 1) Download the draft a/c 'co-ownership' agreement available from AOPA and then, from it, create & discuss a straw man of the Club's structure, rules and restrictions. This usually generates some healthy discussion that you must face sooner or later, and it will weed out some folks who simply haven't walked very far down the reality path of what it means to share an a/c. Grass strips ok? Gravel/dirt? Want to stipulate a minimum runway length? (How will you handle an 'oops' when a member ignores such restrictions?) Minimum LSA hours to be a member? Minimum hours over what time period for currency? How will the schedule be handled, what will the # of flight days for a given member size look like, how will you accommodate the inevitable requests to make extended use of that single a/c during member vacation periods? Working thru the details will help the interested parties to get better acquainted, it might refine your preferred a/c choice, and I think I can guarantee you it will winnow out some folks, which is helpful to know sooner vs. later. That draft agreement is a helpful place to start, even if it's only a start.

3. Money: As part of this 'reality check', building up a sample budget that identifies the commitment each interested party needs to commit to, including an initial deposit, will probably be eye-opening for some. And it's work you'll need to do sooner or later anyway. My experience: Doing it sooner is more helpful. AOPA has a very thorough, 'canned' a/c ownership spreadsheet you can download and then just plug in numbers to the various cells (or ignore the ones that don't apply). It doesn't have to be totally accurate nor be 'complete' to foster useful discussion. And playing 'what if' with some of the assumptions - acquisition cost e.g. - will foster a more realistic discussion of a/c decisions (dual displays really necessary?).

Basically, I'm asking to what degree you (all of you, that is) are working from a concept vs. having done enough homework to have a viable membership group. The devil's in the details and you may be further away from simply finding an a/c than it appears. And of course all of this is just intended as food for thought. Good luck to you.

Hi Jack,

Thanks for taking the time to make these points. It is greatly appreciated and very good advice. As far as organization goes I'm handling that as I have a fair amount of experience as a CPA organizing business entities (profit and not-for profit) as a CPA. I've spent some time running the numbers but will certainly locate the AOPA spreadsheet and see what I might have missed. I have gathered a couple of sample operating agreements but know I have more due diligence to do in that regard. I do also need to make sure the prospective members have the buy-in/agreement I think they do and to that end I'll take your advice and get things documented and communicated.

I recently had a gentleman tell me that the organization should be an LLC with me as the operating member with the final word in decision making. That particular gentleman has attempted to start a number of clubs which all failed. Not sure I want to take his advice. My research indicates that the successful flight club organizations are of all sorts - LLCs, partnerships etc. I know of one club that owns a 172. They fly it wet for $65 per hour and annual dues are $200. There is a one time buy in of $1,700 and they have limited their membership to 12. Everybody pitches in for maintenance under the direction and oversight of an A&P who is also a member. Their club seems to work very well. That said, I don't think all of my current prospective members would be interested in such a hands on approach. To that end I've increased my hourly reserve for maintenance.

I like the idea of collecting refundable deposits. That's a great way to ensure that individuals are actually as committed as they claim - money talks. Fortunately I have a partner who is assisting me in the organization of the club. It is a bit more involved that one might originally think. We've actually discussed a number of the logistics variables you mentioned. We have yet to put these in writing but that will have to be done soon.

Do you have any suggestions/guidance regarding the type of club and club leadership?