"LSA Eligible"

[MrMorden]

Andy, the way the afar is written, it's not a question of whether a plane can fly at a higher gross weight, or if it has ever flown at higher gross weight, but rather if it was ever certified at higher gross weight (or beyond any other LSA limit). Remember, an STC is a modification to the airplane's Type Certificate. As such it is clearly regulatory. So, we're not talking about safety or logic here, merely about complying with regulations. Those to whom the rule of law is irrelevant will doubtless choose to violate many FARs, including this one.

I understand how the law works, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the reasoning behind it.

Why cares if an airplane once flew at 1500lb? If it's currently certified at 1320lb, and meets all LSA performance numbers at that weight, what does it matter how it flew in the past? It's like claiming an airplane that was converted from taildragger to tricycle gear is still a taildragger, or that an airplane is unairworthy because it once had engine trouble that has long since been repaired.

So there must be some behavioral expectation associated with the once higher gross weight. The FAA must expect pilots to behave differently because the weight was once different. Because clearly there is no safety issue with an Ercoupe flown at 1320lb regardless of whether it has always flown at or below that weight or if it was once "tainted."

[drseti]

Not sure it matters, but here are the actual numbers with respect to the 415C. Certified max gross 1260 (for comparison, J3 Cub and Aeronca 7AC were both 1220). That 1960s STC brought Ercoupe up to 1400. There is currently an STC available from Univair that raises 415C max gross to 1320, but its language specifically denies eligibility for those planes that had complied with the earlier STC.

FWIW, Evektor SportStar received its SLSA approval at 1268#, and a subsequent Service Bulletin (equiv. to an STC) brought that up to 1320. But, this was all done under ASTM rules, and no SportStar in the US was ever registered higher than 1320 (though some EuroStars in other countries were).

[Merlinspop]

This is only a guess, and a WAG at that, but my thought is that they were trying to preclude an STC that lowers the max weight of, say, a C150/152 (or any other plane that was 'close' but not close enough) to 1320#.

[MrMorden]

This is only a guess, and a WAG at that, but my thought is that they were trying to preclude an STC that lowers the max weight of, say, a C150/152 (or any other plane that was 'close' but not close enough) to 1320#.

But again...why? If the 150/152 can meet all the LSA specs, and people are willing to fly them at 1320, why not allow it? The FAA line about the weight limit is to limit crash energy. The physics don't change because the airplane once had a piece of paper showing a higher weight at some previous time; all that matters is what is the weight (and thus energy) at the time of the crash.

[drseti]

Like Bruce, I'm also only speculating, but one reason for that rule might be:

If folks know that plane was once certified at a higher gross weight, they may be more likely to fly it over the LSA maximum.

(Or, just maybe, it is completely arbitrary. )

[MrMorden]

Like Bruce, I'm also only speculating, but one reason for that rule might be:

If folks know that plane was once certified at a higher gross weight, they may be more likely to fly it over the LSA maximum.

Right, which is what I mentioned above...but surely the FAA is not so naive as to think those kinds of things really change pilot behavior. Pilots that are not inclined to violate rules won't be enticed to do so, and those inclined to violate rules will not be enticed to follow them.

[3Dreaming]

Andy, it is not just the weight, but all of the requirements of CFR 1.1 that must stay within limits. For example take the Mooney Mite, you can't put a bolt in the gear handle and say it is now a fixed landing gear and fly it as a sport pilot.

[MrMorden]

Andy, it is not just the weight, but all of the requirements of CFR 1.1 that must stay within limits. For example take the Mooney Mite, you can't put a bolt in the gear handle and say it is now a fixed landing gear and fly it as a sport pilot.

Sure, but I'm talking about the airplanes that meet ALL definitions of an LSA (stall & top speeds, fixed gear, etc) *except* gross weight. The 150/152 is one, and there are several others. If they can be flown in a usable condition at 1320lb, why not allow it? A 150/152 will be a single seater at that weight almost surely, but again...why not if the owner is willing to STC it at that weight?

[3Dreaming]

Andy, it is not just the weight, but all of the requirements of CFR 1.1 that must stay within limits. For example take the Mooney Mite, you can't put a bolt in the gear handle and say it is now a fixed landing gear and fly it as a sport pilot.

Sure, but I'm talking about the airplanes that meet ALL definitions of an LSA (stall & top speeds, fixed gear, etc) *except* gross weight. The 150/152 is one, and there are several others. If they can be flown in a usable condition at 1320lb, why not allow it? A 150/152 will be a single seater at that weight almost surely, but again...why not if the owner is willing to STC it at that weight?

I guess they had to draw a line or set a limit somewhere, and this where they chose to put the limit. The FAA has all kinds of limits in the regulations. In fact there are limits set just about everywhere you look in life. Sometimes the limits seem to have a good reason for where they are set, and sometimes it seems quite arbitrary. I am sure someone somewhere thought the limit was a good idea, or it would have not been set.

[MrMorden]

Andy, it is not just the weight, but all of the requirements of CFR 1.1 that must stay within limits. For example take the Mooney Mite, you can't put a bolt in the gear handle and say it is now a fixed landing gear and fly it as a sport pilot.

Sure, but I'm talking about the airplanes that meet ALL definitions of an LSA (stall & top speeds, fixed gear, etc) *except* gross weight. The 150/152 is one, and there are several others. If they can be flown in a usable condition at 1320lb, why not allow it? A 150/152 will be a single seater at that weight almost surely, but again...why not if the owner is willing to STC it at that weight?

I guess they had to draw a line or set a limit somewhere, and this where they chose to put the limit. The FAA has all kinds of limits in the regulations. In fact there are limits set just about everywhere you look in life. Sometimes the limits seem to have a good reason for where they are set, and sometimes it seems quite arbitrary. I am sure someone somewhere thought the limit was a good idea, or it would have not been set.

I'm not arguing the limit, which you can at least make a safety case for. I'm talking about the fact that once a plane is set at a gross weight above 1320, it can never be an LSA again, even if originally it was below that weight. There is no possible safety rationale for this. It almost seems like a measure designed to limit the number of available LSA in the marketplace...

[sandpiper]

Andy - repeat after me...."trying to work with the FAA is like trying to row a boat still tied to the dock"....

It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't even have to be reasonable.

On the other hand, I'm glad we got what we did.

[3Dreaming]

Andy, I don't disagree that is seem silly, but it is what it is. I know of a fellow who bought a Taylorcraft from a sport pilot to use for sport pilot training. He mentioned that it once had a Beech Roby prop installed, not even knowing what a beech Roby prop was. A Beech Roby propeller is inflight adjustable, so that airplane is not in compliance with CFR 1.1. He verified it by going all the way to the FAA light sport division. Now that made even less sense that the weight change not being allowed.

[snaproll]

Unfortunately, the weight issue is set in stone and once increased, it cannot be reversed. For folks building experimental aircraft, the builder can set the gross weight during the licensing/inspection process. Once set, it also cannot be reduced. This allows many experimental designs which otherwise meet the Sport Pilot rules with the exception of gross weight to license at 1320 pounds gross. Expecting logic and common sense from the FAA is like expecting fast service from the Veterans Administration - Have dealt with both for decades - dream on... VR.. Don