LSA Values Declining?

[FastEddieB]

Eddie, what do your ELSA's Operating Limitations say regarding densely populated areas or congested airways?

Andy nailed it:

""This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground."

Since that's about the same language as that found under "Minimum Safe Altitudes - Anywhere...",

I find it makes no practical difference at all.

[Merlinspop]

Of course, it probably does not make sense to convert a nearly new S-LSA to E-LSA.

I believe a fair number of Carbon Cubs leave the factory certified as ELSA's at the purchaser's request.

That's mainly because the no-option factory airplane has less than 10 pounds available for options and stay S-SLA. The max empty wt for the model is 900#. Most leave the factory well above that.

[Wm.Ince]

. . . "I believe a fair number of Carbon Cubs leave the factory certified as ELSA's at the purchaser's request." . . .

That also applies to Van's, factory built S-LSA, RV-12. The purchaser can have it delivered E-LSA at point of acceptance, if the new owner requests it.

[sandpiper]

I have considered E-LSA for my CT. However, didn't the FAA recently come up with a NPRM that limited S-LSA converted to E-LSA to one occupant?

Although I doubt such language would make it to the final rule, you never know what they might attempt next.

Or, did I mis-read the NPRM??

[MrMorden]

I have considered E-LSA for my CT. However, didn't the FAA recently come up with a NPRM that limited S-LSA converted to E-LSA to one occupant?

Although I doubt such language would make it to the final rule, you never know what they might attempt next.

Or, did I mis-read the NPRM??

The FAA later said that was a mistake and removed said language, which my devious mind interpreted as "Whoops, you caught us trying to sneak that through...we will have to try again later when we think nobody is looking."

[FastEddieB]

That's mainly because the no-option factory airplane has less than 10 pounds available for options and stay S-SLA. The max empty wt for the model is 900#. Most leave the factory well above that.

I'm not sure what you're saying.

Are not the weight limits the same for both classes of LSA?

In any case, I know a Cirrus pilot who bought a Carbon Cub and had it delivered as an ELSA for all the same reasons people sometimes convert after the fact. He never mentioned the weight thing as a factor.

BTW, if I ever were to move to an RV12, let's say, absolutely no question I'd want it certified ELSA.

[sandpiper]

I think there is a minimum useful load requirement to be a LSA. Don't recall what that is but the LSA cubs from Cub Crafters push that limit.

If you had any plans to lease your RV-12 to a flight school for flight training, it would have to be a S-LSA.

Otherwise, being E-LSA allows you to do your own inspections after taking a 16 hour course. Advantage E-LSA.

[drseti]

I think there is a minimum useful load requirement to be a LSA.

That's correct, John. I don't remember the exact formula (it changed recently), but I believe it's now something like:

Sufficient useful load for 2 180 pound occupants, plus two hours of fuel at normal cruise power.

For a Rotax 912 powered SLSA, assuming 5 gallons per hour in cruise, that would be 60# of fuel plus 360# of occupants, for 420# minimum useful load. At the 1320# max gross weight limit, that would set the empty weight at 900# maximum. As you over-equip an LSA, you can easily approach this limit.

Carol Carpenter would know the exact formula -- as she serves on ASTM Committee F39.

[designrs]

BTW, if I ever were to move to an RV12, let's say, absolutely no question I'd want it certified ELSA.

So Eddie, if you purchased a new RV-12 direct from Van's, you would want it as an E-LSA?
Can you please explain your reasons for that?

[FastEddieB]

That's correct, John. I don't remember the exact formula (it changed recently), but I believe it's now something like:

Sufficient useful load for 2 180 pound occupants, plus two hours of fuel at normal cruise power.

Well, what I was getting at is an ELSA is still an LSA.

Are the weight rules different for ELSA?

[FastEddieB]

BTW, if I ever were to move to an RV12, let's say, absolutely no question I'd want it certified ELSA.

So Eddie, if you purchased a new RV-12 direct from Van's, you would want it as an E-LSA?

Definitely*.

Can you please explain your reasons for that?

Ability to make parts substitutions and mods at my discretion.

Ability to do all the maintenance I was comfortable with.

Ability to do my own annual condition inspections (I took the 16 hour course).


* If it affected the warranty, I might take delivery as an SLSA and then convert after the warranty period. I honestly don't know how and if the warranty remains in effect on ELSA deliveries.

Anyone?

[Merlinspop]

That's correct, John. I don't remember the exact formula (it changed recently), but I believe it's now something like:

Sufficient useful load for 2 180 pound occupants, plus two hours of fuel at normal cruise power.

Well, what I was getting at is an ELSA is still an LSA.

Are the weight rules different for ELSA?

Yes. E-LSA don't have a minimum useful load.
CubCrafters also offers an alternative to certify a plane as a Single Seat S-LSA, which essentially gives back some weight of one passenger, plus a bit of savings from not having a seat and controls back there. I don't know of any customer who has opted for that.

This doesn't explain the weight formula, but it is fun to play with and see the effect of each option on the overall weight.
http://www.cubcrafters.com/pdfs/carbonc ... r_form.pdf

[FastEddieB]

Yes. E-LSA don't have a minimum useful load.

Good to know.

I'll add that to my data bank!

[MrMorden]

In any case, I know a Cirrus pilot who bought a Carbon Cub and had it delivered as an ELSA for all the same reasons people sometimes convert after the fact. He never mentioned the weight thing as a factor.

I'd be surprised if many Carbon Cubs take off at legal weights...they are *really* weight limited at 1320lb.

[MrMorden]

That's correct, John. I don't remember the exact formula (it changed recently), but I believe it's now something like:

Sufficient useful load for 2 180 pound occupants, plus two hours of fuel at normal cruise power.

Well, what I was getting at is an ELSA is still an LSA.

Are the weight rules different for ELSA?

Yes. E-LSA don't have a minimum useful load.

What is the minimum useful load for an S-LSA?