SLSA Dream Machine

[MovingOn]

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[drseti]

And I said a certified GPS makes no sense and is not required for LSA and the 2020 ADS-B mandate.

And I say that's wishful thinking.

[drseti]

Back for just a moment to the ADS-B question:

Here's a report on the ADS-B seminar at AirVenture.
http://aopamailer.aopa2.org/trk/clickp? ... _sect=osh&

Summarized as "more questions than answers."

[MovingOn]

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[Merlinspop]

The requirement does not specify WAAS.
Here's a briefing given by the FAA Surveillance Team Lead. Note slide 23. Does you Flight Manual contain the Language found on slide 18?

Correct, technically. However, the spec does require a "high precision GPS". Currently WAAS is the only way to meet that standard. A regular old GPS won't make that spec; even an original non-WAAS 430 is not compliant.

So unless somebody comes up with a new way to get the required precision out of the GPS system, compliance in reality DOES mean WAAS.

I realize that (currently) only WAAS boxes meet the accuracy part of the requirement, but there's more to the requirement than just that. Simply saying, "I have WAAS, therefore I'm good to go" is incorrect. The GPS in question works just fine *now*, but it doesn't meet the post 1/1/2020 requirement. Hopefully, the requirement will be amended, or lower cost solutions come out.

It might turn out to be very useful that the position source does not have to be the navigation source. So in theory, a gps that is compliant can be remote mounted and the nav data need not be updated. A used 430w, I believe, can serve that purpose. There are compliant GPSs out now that are just remotely mounted boxes, which saves the cost of displays and interfaces.

[MovingOn]

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[drseti]

There is no mandate for ADS-B in.

True, but there will be one for ADS-B out, in 2020, for certain airspace. And, if you want to receive full traffic via ADS-B In, you will eventually be required to provide ADS-B Out. This is where the approved GPS will become an issue, probably before 2020.

[MovingOn]

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[MrMorden]

The requirement does not specify WAAS.
Here's a briefing given by the FAA Surveillance Team Lead. Note slide 23. Does you Flight Manual contain the Language found on slide 18?

Correct, technically. However, the spec does require a "high precision GPS". Currently WAAS is the only way to meet that standard. A regular old GPS won't make that spec; even an original non-WAAS 430 is not compliant.

So unless somebody comes up with a new way to get the required precision out of the GPS system, compliance in reality DOES mean WAAS.

I realize that (currently) only WAAS boxes meet the accuracy part of the requirement, but there's more to the requirement than just that. Simply saying, "I have WAAS, therefore I'm good to go" is incorrect. The GPS in question works just fine *now*, but it doesn't meet the post 1/1/2020 requirement. Hopefully, the requirement will be amended, or lower cost solutions come out.

It might turn out to be very useful that the position source does not have to be the navigation source. So in theory, a gps that is compliant can be remote mounted and the nav data need not be updated. A used 430w, I believe, can serve that purpose. There are compliant GPSs out now that are just remotely mounted boxes, which saves the cost of displays and interfaces.

I completely agree, and did not say otherwise...in fact my posts say exactly that. WAAS is not sufficient, and a TSO is not sufficient. Both must be in place to meet 2020 compliance. Which is silly but that is how it is written.

[MrMorden]

But, if you don't fly in class A, B, or C airspace you could use non-certified ADS-B in and non-certified ADS-B out equipment and see all (most) of the traffic and be perfectly fine. My SkyGuard ADS-B transceiver and Nexus 7 would be all I need. Also, assume my FBO equips their SkyCatchers with certified ADS-B out to be 2020 compliant. All a renter would need is a tablet with GPS for ADS-B in.

And some way for the tablet to tank to the ADS-B gear in the plane...a cable, Bluetooth, wireless, whatever both can use.

[MovingOn]

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[Jack Tyler]

CTSLi, it's really up to you alone whether you choose to learn from the string of detailed explanations you've received about 2020 compliance...or not.

I appreciated some of the detail about the ADS-B out signal including data bits that indicate TSO compliance (or not). Hadn't heard that before; thanks! But do I see some of CTLSi's "I won't accept what I don't want to hear" behavior represented in some of the other comments here? There seems to be a belief by some that the GPS source standard (TSO certification) itself will be revisited before 2020. Where does that come from, aside from wishful thinking? Pre-Oshkosh (e.g. when Huerta visited AOPA in Frederick) and throughout the Oshkosh period, all the public commentary from the FAA I've read sticks to the same adamant party line: the ground station system is in place, the standard is set and the implementation date will not change. If there's a valid reason to believe the GPS standard will be revisited, I'd welcome hearing about it. But if it's commercial commentary from mfgrs like Dynon, then I agree with the previous observation that a mfgr can just purchase a TSO'd GPS source from a 3rd party to insure compliance. And that doesn't change a thing in the marketplace where we all shop.

[c162pilot]

Case in point my buddy has a Garmin (formally UPSAT) TSO'd GNS480 WAAS GPS and he has a Garmin GTX 330 ES ADS-B out transponder, However while this works today it is not compliant with the 2020 mandate and will not be compliant until Garmin issues a patch to the GNS 480 operating software. Additionally Garmin offers two models of their GDL88 UAT (768Mhz) one with a WAAS GPS and one without the difference in price being $1,000. As I understand it a TSO's panel mount GPS like a GNS 480 or GTN 630 is not required only a TSO'd WAAS GPS position source with the correct data stream.

[drseti]

will not be compliant until Garmin issues a patch to the GNS 480 operating software.

Garmin is pretty good about providing necessary software updates for their TSOd products. The problem is, they've indicated they will not provide patches for their 396/496/696/796 product line, even though these contain WAAS receivers. (Perhaps it's not so simple with those products, as they may not provide the data handoffs required...)

[CTLSi]

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