New LSA to be introduced at AirVenture

[3Dreaming]

One difference between the business model of MVP and Icon is that MVP is proposing a 'crawl / walk / run' approach. Initially the MVP will be available only as EAB that will allow aircraft over 1430 pounds and the option for higher horsepower engines such as the new Superior IO360 clone. Next will be the E-LSA model available in s similar approach to the Glasair 'Two Week to Taxi' program. Finally around 2018 the S-LSA model is planned to be available. Perhaps this measured approach to the market may allow MVP to get aircraft into builders / customers hands faster than Icon has been able to.

A SLSA version has to come first, or there can be no ELSA.

[MrMorden]

Even if you wanted an LSA float plane, you would get the ICON, not a me-too ICON that costs more and doesn't have the goodies the ICON took five years to bring to market. The ICON is also a niche product. The only customer for them at the $190k level has to be yacht owners, or guys in Florida with tons of cash.

No I wouldn't. I'd get a SeaRey.

[CTLSi]

......

[MrMorden]

One difference between the business model of MVP and Icon is that MVP is proposing a 'crawl / walk / run' approach. Initially the MVP will be available only as EAB that will allow aircraft over 1430 pounds and the option for higher horsepower engines such as the new Superior IO360 clone. Next will be the E-LSA model available in s similar approach to the Glasair 'Two Week to Taxi' program. Finally around 2018 the S-LSA model is planned to be available. Perhaps this measured approach to the market may allow MVP to get aircraft into builders / customers hands faster than Icon has been able to.

In other words the throw crap on a wall and see if it sticks approach?

In other words, "Give owners as many options as possible, so they can choose their preferred configuration and help the company understand where the most viable market is." Otherwise known as Marketing and Product Placement 101.

[drseti]

A SLSA version has to come first, or there can be no ELSA.

Tom is correct. Although they are not required to actually sell any SLSA versions, it must be ASTM approved. They could just build one or two, get airworthiness certificates on them in the Special Light Sport category, and then sell ELSA kits. This is exactly what Dick VanGrunsven did with the RV-12. Only a couple of years later did he set up the deal with Synergy to have them build up RV-12 kits and sell them as SLSAs.

[mcurcio1989]

Even if you wanted an LSA float plane, you would get the ICON, not a me-too ICON that costs more and doesn't have the goodies the ICON took five years to bring to market. The ICON is also a niche product. The only customer for them at the $190k level has to be yacht owners, or guys in Florida with tons of cash.

No I wouldn't. I'd get a SeaRey.

That was my point with both the MVP and the Icon. Anybody who wants a float plane or amphib that has a license would already own one of the great models that currently exist. I really doubt that there are that many pilots who have wanted an amphibious plane but are just holding off on a more expensive aircraft that looks like a Ferrari to come out for them to pull the trigger and I can't for see any cross over pilots either. Of course this is just my limited perspective.

[MrMorden]

Even if you wanted an LSA float plane, you would get the ICON, not a me-too ICON that costs more and doesn't have the goodies the ICON took five years to bring to market. The ICON is also a niche product. The only customer for them at the $190k level has to be yacht owners, or guys in Florida with tons of cash.

No I wouldn't. I'd get a SeaRey.

That was my point with both the MVP and the Icon. Anybody who wants a float plane or amphib that has a license would already own one of the great models that currently exist. I really doubt that there are that many pilots who have wanted an amphibious plane but are just holding off on a more expensive aircraft that looks like a Ferrari to come out for them to pull the trigger and I can't for see any cross over pilots either. Of course this is just my limited perspective.

I think that's valid. It's amusing to see all the marketing "Look what we invented!" hype, as if these are the first airplanes ever made with water hulls. Icon's marketing video takes it a step beyond, as they all but claim credit for inventing AoA as a "new way to fly".

[Jack Tyler]

But c162's point could still be valid:

"One difference between the business model of MVP and Icon is that MVP is proposing a 'crawl / walk / run' approach...."

MVP could well choose to initially manufacture parts on a limited basis for a design that is adaptable enough that it could initially be built E-AB with weight, power and other aspects well beyond the LSA ASTM standard. I can see marketing benefits to this 'first step', in the 'look what's possible with our design' category. If they receive enough interest that an E-LSA kit product seems warranted, they could then build a single S-LSA model for certification purposes only. This would mean they are only committing themselves to continue providing kits to builders (E-AB and E-LSA). Up to this point, they are only required to tool up for limited manufacturing with a smaller work force while determining, incrementally, how the market responds to the product. And if they believe a S-LSA version is commercially viable, they can always opt for the choice Vans made: sub-contract the S-LSA manufacturing on a fixed price basis while retaining their own limited overhead. So there is a business model apparent there that is protective of investor capital.

But the broader question most of you raise - and which is the premise for this product - is whether there is a sufficient level of demand for this model to sustain its introduction to a sustained level of manufacturing (even if only kit manufacturing). I personally don't see that. But when I talk to pilots in the 'lake areas' of Florida and who fly in the Upper Midwest and in states like Maine, there does seem to be a difference in what they would really like to do with a plane given the vast number of lakes available. So perhaps my vision is just too clouded to see what the MVP people 'think' they see.

About Icon: For those of you attending AirVenture or who have been following the Icon dream machine, my understanding is that a 'production model' was shown at AirVenture and that it is the specific a/c which will now be evaluated for certification. (Put differently, it isn't 'vaporware' in the sense that it 'is' the model they claim they will be manufacturing). Can you folks confirm that, or shed some light on where things stand in Icon's plan to certify their product? (Please, ease up on the editorializing. Just the facts, Ma'am, just the facts. <g>) Icon's hype-to-results ratio to date has seemed so high to me that I haven't had the interest to follow it. So just curious...

[drseti]

Yes, Jack, Icon has put out so much hyperbola it's almost conical. (There was parabol about that, he says with ellipses...)

[c162pilot]

Jack, I think you articulated my point better than I did. Another key item that perhaps I did not mention, is that the E-LSA model will be offered similar to the Glasair 'Two Week to Taxi Program' but instead of having only one build center there will be four. Glasair will cover the west and a center for the east was announced with one for the south-west and mid-west to be announced at a later date. Additionally Glasair will be manufacturing many of the structures for the MVP as a contract manufacturer. The question still that needs to be answered is how many people will want to go and spend two weeks building (more likely assembling) their amphibian when they can either wait for the S-LSA version, which is listed as only $20K more or buy an Icon.

Regarding your question on Icon at Oshkosh, their pavilion was like walking into a high-end Porsche, Mercedes or Ferrari dealership in Manhattan, with huge video screens, the plane in center stage roped off and full size mock-up of the cockpit. I would say it was one of the more impressive pavilions (another being the HondaJet) but I do not know how that will translate to them finishing the product, moving into production and then supporting the products after sale. Certainly the plane ESN-1 looked captivating. Time will tell if Icon and Kirk Hawkins will be the Tesla of the LSA industry or ends up like DeLorian with the A5 being only remembered as the star of a future James Bond movie.

[Jack Tyler]

Ah, a first-person report on the Icon. Thanks! Sounds to me like a lot of deposit and/or investor money was spent on a splashy AirVenture display. What's that old marketing slogan? When the steak's not much to talk about, sell the sizzle.

[drseti]

The actual quote is "don't sell the steak - sell the sizzle." Source: "Tested Sentences that Sell", copyright 1937 by Elmer Wheeler. (My dad was an ad-man, so I grew up on quotes from Wheeler, Vance Packard, and Mary Wells.)