How do you guys afford a brand new SLSA?

[MrMorden]

Personally I like the looks of the Sonex, especially on the more attractive painted planes.

Thoughts on:
1) Reliability of the Aero Vee motor?
2) Level of tailwheel skill required, relative to say a Carbon Cub SS (easier or more challenging)?

Thanks!

The Aerovee is a pretty good motor, but is a kit built engine and does seem to require a little more day to day tweaking than some. Revmaster and Great Plains make great VW motors you could use insead that might make things easier. Honestly the Jabiru 3300 is by far the best engine to use in that airframe. 80hp just does not give great climb performance.

The Sonex tailwheel is directly steered by a pushrods, and is said to be one of the easiest to control tail wheel airplanes out there. This is all from other pilots, I am not a tail wheel pilot and was building a tricycle airplane.

[designrs]

Thanks for the feedback on AeroVee and Sonex.

An award-winning Ercoupe, in apparently very nice condition, is on Barnstormers for $45k.

[MrMorden]

Thanks for the feedback on AeroVee and Sonex.

An award-winning Ercoupe, in apparently very nice condition, is on Barnstormers for $45k.

You should be able to find a good Sonex with Jabiru 3300 in that price range, which would be an airplane with similar load and space, but fully aerobatic, a 150mph cruise, and scads more fun.

[designrs]

How is it that you can feel positive about Jabiru after some of the incidents?
(No intent to be argumentive. I'm really looking for good feedback for understanding.)

[MrMorden]

How is it that you can feel positive about Jabiru after some of the incidents?
(No intent to be argumentive. I'm really looking for good feedback for understanding.)

Which incidents, specifically?

I am confident because the people that I know that have them are religious about doing periodic maintenance on them and have no problems. I have one friend with a Sonex that has 480hrs on a Jabiru in a three year period and has had no issues at all. He inspects plugs, checks the head torque, and does all the other required maintenance every 25 hours, as well as running it so that it does not overheat. He has flown that airplane literally coast-to-coast and never had a lick of trouble.

I prefer the Rotax 912 honestly, but the Jabiru is a good engine and Sonex is not making a firewall forward setup for Rotax. I would trust the reliability of the Jabiru over the Aerovee any day of the week.

[designrs]

Thank you!
I was not thinking of specific incidents, rather the overall impression of Jab and numerous references to them having reliability problems. In the several years that I've been involved in LSA I never really heard any positive comments about Jab, other than aircraft manufacturers and owners gleefully boosting about their performance. So a positive perspective and an realistic view of Jab reliability is certainly welcome.

[MrMorden]

Thank you!
I was not thinking of specific incidents, rather the overall impression of Jab and numerous references to them having reliability problems. In the several years that I've been involved in LSA I never really heard any positive comments about Jab, other than aircraft manufacturers and owners gleefully boosting about their performance. So a positive perspective and an realistic view of Jab reliability is certainly welcome.

Yeah, I don't think the Jab is any less reliable than other engines inherently, but you do have to stay on top of the maintenance and keep an eye on things. With a Rotax 912 a lot of times you can just fly it and forget it until the maintenance intervals, a Jab requires more ongoing attention. The Jabiru makes more power than a 912ULS, but it also weighs 50lb more so it's a bit of a wash in that regard.

I always scratch my head as to why Sonex doesn't offer a 912 engine mount. Their reasoning is to keep things simple, and the partially liquid-cooled 912 is not simple enough for their design philosophy. But it seems they could offer then engine mount and let individual builders decide how complex their airplane will be (since they do anyway). There have been some custom 912 installs in Sonex airplanes, and I think the owners were very happy with them. They get right between the Aerovee and Jab in power, but with 50lb less weight (and even 25lb lighter than the lightest Aerovee with Nikasil cylinders), which in a 1100lb gross weight airplane is huge.

[Jack Tyler]

A close-to-home source of information on Jabiru engines can be found at http://www.recreationalflying.com which is based in Australia where the engines are made. Given the range of in-flight reports I've read on that forum, I would suggest some diligent digging there would be a good idea if you are considering a Jabiru.

Specifically, one thing to keep in mind is that discussing a Jabiru 3300 (or their other models) isn't like discussing my Lycoming 0-360 which has been made in essentially the same form for decades, and with a lengthy trail of documented Service Bulletins that trace what's been learned along the way. The Jab engines have had a good deal more variability in their manufacture as performance problems surfaced and then were attempted to be corrected. This makes fairing a respectable curve on reliability much more difficult.

[Helen]

Get a loan. Put the plane on leaseback at a successful flight school. Let the renters pay your bank note.

[sandpiper]

Get a loan. Put the plane on leaseback at a successful flight school. Let the renters pay your bank note.

Or, maybe, you work your butt off for an entire career and carefully save?

[MrMorden]

Get a loan. Put the plane on leaseback at a successful flight school. Let the renters pay your bank note.

Then in the end you end up with a beat up trainer. I have a 2007 CTSW and trained in a 2007 CTSW that is on leaseback. The one on leaseback looks ten years older than mine. When I bought mine the school asked me if I wanted to put it on leaseback...I declined.

Plus on leaseback you have all the financial responsibility, but don't have all the advantages of ownership: ability to fly anytime you want on your own schedule, knowing what condition the airplane is in at all times, etc.

[Merlinspop]

Get a loan. Put the plane on leaseback at a successful flight school. Let the renters pay your bank note.

Then in the end you end up with a beat up trainer. I have a 2007 CTSW and trained in a 2007 CTSW that is on leaseback. The one on leaseback looks ten years older than mine. When I bought mine the school asked me if I wanted to put it on leaseback...I declined.

Plus on leaseback you have all the financial responsibility, but don't have all the advantages of ownership: ability to fly anytime you want on your own schedule, knowing what condition the airplane is in at all times, etc.

Sorry digressing too far from the topic thread, but the few leaseback contracts that I looked at put so much of the risk and financial burden on the owner that I couldn't imagine anyone willing to agree to the terms. Essentially, all the FBO/School did was keep 25% (or more) of rental for "management" and everything else fell on the owner to do. All the "Management" they did was to add the plane to the list of available airplanes and schedule. This costs the FBO $25-40 per hour of use to do?

[drseti]

Actually, Bruce, my leaseback contract (which is fairly typical) specifies a 20% management fee, which covers not just scheduling the use of the plane, but also advertising it, bringing in students and renters, and managing maintenance, inspections, hangar, and insurance. Even so, it's only really a good financial deal for aircraft owners with high taxable income, looking for tax benefits.

For those who want to read it, my leaseback contract is at http://avsport.org/docs/AIRCRAFT%20LEAS ... EEMENT.pdf.

[3Dreaming]

If someone at an FBO is asking you to lease them an airplane , and the are promising you that there is money to be made. The question you should ask is if there is money to be made as a business person why wouldn't you want to make all the money.

[drseti]

Speaking as a businessman myself, Tom, here's my answer:

The real money made with a leaseback accrues as tax savings. If you're a highly paid professional in the 35% marginal tax bracket, and you buy a new LSA to put on leaseback, the depreciation on that LSA can knock you down into the 15% marginal tax bracket. This tax savings is significant, and puts you ahead of the game even if the leaseback itself just breaks even. I, on the other hand, am already in the 15% (or maybe even 10%) tax bracket, so for me, buying another aircraft for leaseback makes very little financial sense. The more taxable income you need to shelter, the more you can benefit from a leaseback. It can be an attractive deal for a physician or an attorney, but it's not for everybody.