Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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Nomore767
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Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby Nomore767 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:16 pm

At Sebring I had a nice chat with Rainbow who do a 3 week Light Sport Repairman course. 120 hours about $4k. Faa certificate at the end and I would be qualified to do maintenance on my own airplane, and that of others, including servicing and annual condition inspections. They said I could even charge, say $65 hr, to work on other LSAs! I'm not sure about that part but I do have some questions and wondered if any of the forum have any answers?

Lockwood, at Sebring, do a series of Rotax specific courses from servicing to repairs to overhauls. Usually 2-3 days.

Question: would the Rotax specific be better, for a Rotax owner, and more cost effective?

Question: The LS Repairman course is FAA certified, with bi-annual recurrent training required, correct?

Question: Does the Repairman course (which includes Rotax specific training) qualify me to work on a Continental 0-200D airplane?
eg Skycatcher? Legend Cub? ie. a )-200D LSA only airplane?

Question: Has anyone undergone this type of training? Comments, good, bad etc


Cheers, Howard

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drseti
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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby drseti » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:09 pm

Howard, over the past four years, I have taken the following courses:

The 120 hour LSRM-A training from Rainbow, which included the Rotax Service Level certification.
The 2 day Rotax Maintenance Level course, from California Power Systems.
The 3 day Rotax heavy maintenance course, from RSFC.
The 1 day biennial Rotax refresher course, from Lockwood.
The 2 day Glider add-on course, from Rainbow.
The 2 day Weight Shift Control add-on course, from Rainbow.
The 2 day Powered Parachute add-on course, from Rainbow.
The half-day Skyview VFR course, from Dynon.
The half-day Skyview IFR course, from Dynon.

To answer your specific questions:

Yes, the LSRM course gives you the skills and FAA ticket to maintain and inspect S-LSA and E-LSA aircraft, yours and those of others, and to charge for your services. The basic course is airplane-class specific. To work on and inspect other classes of aircraft (PPC, WSC, or Glider) within the two categories (E-LSA and S-LSA), you must also take the appropriate add-on courses. Since the LSRM course includes service-level Rotax training, you may do inspections and basic service of Rotax engines. To remove and replace engine components and accessories, you will want to take the Rotax maintenance level course. To overhaul those components and accessories, you will need training at the heavy maintenance level. None of these courses prepares you to split the crankcase; only a Rotax Service Center may do that. Similarly, only a Rotax authorized Repair Station can overhaul a Rotax engine.

The LSRM will similarly let you do service and inspections on such certified engines as the O-200, but only if they are installed in an ELSA or SLSA. An LSRM can never inspect E-AB or certified aircraft. E-AB condition inspections require an A&P. To inspect a certified aircraft, an IA is required. I did an EAA webinar on this topic a few months back; it may be viewed from the EAA website (see http://eaa.org/webinars).

You can do more advanced maintenance on Continental, Lycoming, Jabiru, etc. engines, only with task-specific training on those engines, and again only in an SLSA or ELSA.

You are not required to take refresher training to renew your LSRM; it is issued for life. Rotax does require you to take refresher training every two years, for whatever engine privileges you hold, in order to continue to be listed as a factory authorized mechanic. This is not an FAA requirement, but you can't claim Rotax affiliation, use their name in advertising, or get reimbursed for warranty repairs without it.

If you want to do condition inspections on others' aircraft, and/or charge for LSA maintenance services, you must hold an LSRM. If you want to do anything on a Rotax engine other than condition inspections and preventive maintenance, you must take the appropriate level of Rotax training. (You also must use the approved tools, manuals, and procedures).

I found all my training at Rainbow, CPS, Lockwood, and RSFC to be of the highest quality, and well worth the time, effort, and cost.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
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http://AvSport.org
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MovingOn
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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby MovingOn » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:15 pm

......
Last edited by MovingOn on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nomore767
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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby Nomore767 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:26 pm

Paul,

Awesome response and hugely helpful. Thanks!

I think it's official…you are THE MAN!!

I have the same question as Moving On…if I only wanted to work on my own plane. I saw some 2 day courses at Lockwood but I'm not sure if they are just educational or whether they would allow me to inspect, maintain and sign off my own logs?

Cheers, Howard

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby drseti » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:27 pm

For condition inspections on your own plane only, you don't need the LSRM course; the LSRI (16 hour course) will get you the required ticket. But to do any maintenance other than preventive tasks (that is, minor repairs, major repairs, and alterations), you'll need the equivalent training to what's offered in the LSRM (120 hour) course.

Similarly, if you only want to do preventive maintenance on your Rotax engine, you need only the service level training. But to pull and swap components, you'll need the maintenance course. To overhaul components, you'll need the heavy maintenance course.

I failed to say before that you can't take the Rotax Heavy course until two years have elapsed since you took the Maintenance course. They want you to get some experience before upgrading your skills.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby Nomore767 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:22 pm

Paul,

I'm a bit confused here as I was looking at EAA course for LS inspection (16 hours) and they say it's for E-LSA only…not S-LSA.

"pulling and swapping" components doesn't include plugs, filters, batteries right?

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby drseti » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:41 pm

Nomore767 wrote: they say it's for E-LSA only…not S-LSA.


My apologies, Howard; I misspoke. That is entirely correct. For a matrix showing what rating is required to perform a given task on a given category of LSA, see:

http://avsport.org/pwrpoint/matrix.pdf

I also may have misspoken with regard to condition inspections on an experimental amateur-built aircraft. Generally requires an A&P (no IA required). But the original builder can get a repairman certificate to do inspections. This applies only to the original builder, and does not transfer with the plane (unlike an ELSA, where any subsequent owner can also get a repairman certificate for that plane).

See my EAA webinar on LSA maintenance for further confusion - er, clarification.

"pulling and swapping" components doesn't include plugs, filters, batteries right?


Correct. For most LSAs, those are preventive maintenance tasks, not considered major repair, minor repair, or alteration. (the manufacturer's maintenance manual is the final authority on what is or isn't preventive maintenance.)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
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http://AvSport.org
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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:57 am

drseti wrote: (the manufacturer's maintenance manual is the final authority on what is or isn't preventive maintenance.)


Appendix A to Part 43 is the final authority. The FAA has said that manufacturers can not take away or give privileges that are given in the regulations.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 3&rgn=div9

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby Merlinspop » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:14 am

3Dreaming wrote:Appendix A to Part 43 is the final authority. The FAA has said that manufacturers can not take away or give privileges that are given in the regulations.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 3&rgn=div9


Which says, in part...
"Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:..."
Who determines whether it's a "complex assembly operation"? The Manufacturer's Maintenance Manual is a good place to start.
- Bruce

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby MrMorden » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:22 am

drseti wrote:An LSRM can never inspect E-AB or certified aircraft. E-AB condition inspections require an A&P.


Never say never! An LSRM *can* inspect an E-AB...if he or she is the builder and has obtained the repairman certificate for that particular E-AB. 8)
Andy Walker
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Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:24 am

MrMorden wrote:
drseti wrote:An LSRM can never inspect E-AB or certified aircraft. E-AB condition inspections require an A&P.


Never say never! An LSRM *can* inspect an E-AB...if he or she is the builder and has obtained the repairman certificate for that particular E-AB. 8)


And has a repairman certificate for the aircraft.

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby drseti » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:32 am

MrMorden wrote: An LSRM *can* inspect an E-AB...if he or she is the builder and has obtained the repairman certificate for that particular E-AB. 8)


Yes. As I said above:

with regard to condition inspections on an experimental amateur-built aircraft. Generally requires an A&P (no IA required). But the original builder can get a repairman certificate to do inspections. This applies only to the original builder, and does not transfer with the plane (unlike an ELSA, where any subsequent owner can also get a repairman certificate for that plane).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby drseti » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:37 am

3Dreaming wrote:Appendix A to Part 43 is the final authority. The FAA has said that manufacturers can not take away or give privileges that are given in the regulations.


Yes, Tom, we've had this discussion before, and generally I agree that Appendix A dictates. But remember, under Part 43, compliance methods employed are still dictated by the manufacturer, so to that extent, an owner/operator must still consult the maintenance manual. Nothing in Part 43 Appendix A says you can disregard the manufacturer's procedures when performing PM tasks.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:46 am

Merlinspop wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Appendix A to Part 43 is the final authority. The FAA has said that manufacturers can not take away or give privileges that are given in the regulations.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 3&rgn=div9


Which says, in part...
"Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:..."
Who determines whether it's a "complex assembly operation"? The Manufacturer's Maintenance Manual is a good place to start.


All I was trying to say is in the early days of light sport people were trying to say that the manufacurer controls the maintenance on the airplanes. The FAA has come out and said that the manufacturer can not take away or add privileges that they have already given in the CFR's.

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Re: Light Sport Repairman Course or Rotax specific courses?

Postby drseti » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:07 am

Tom, you're right to emphasize that legal interpretation, as it is still not generally understood.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying


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