Affordable ADS-B out

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Wm.Ince
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby Wm.Ince » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:12 pm

MrMorden wrote:The reason the EchoUAT requires an antenna is because it's dual band, 978MHz and 1090MHz. The GDL-82 is 978MHz only.

Excellent point.
MrMorden wrote:I agree that the GDL-82 is very simple and elegant, but it's also $400 more than the EchoUAT and is single band only. My install will likely be EchoUAT or the GDL-82, but frankly the only reason I'm considering the -82 is because I use Garmin Pilot and it would keep me from having to buy a GDL-39.
If you're not using GP, I think the features and price of the EchoUAT win out.

For my needs, echoUAT fits the bill. Sometime in 2018.
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ShawnM
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby ShawnM » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:18 pm

Point well taken and correct on the GDL-82. Single band. But it's designed to simply satisfy the mandate and be the easiest to install. And best of all it's a Garmin.

I already have a GDL-39 3D which is a "dual band" receiver for IN that is hardwired to my Aera 660. It offers bluetooth of course for my iPad mini running ForeFlight but with the Aera 660 I rarely use ForeFlight anymore. I do bring it as a backup if ever needed. I get everything I need on my Aera 660. The 3D version also gives me AHRS on my Aera 660.

The addition of the GDL-82 (with its easy install) will give me the OUT that is needed to satisfy the mandate and it'll wake up the towers so I can receive both bands on my GDL-39 3D. With my GDL-39 I will have a complete picture of all traffic.

With the $500 rebate it's a win/win for me. The rebate will reimburse me for the GDL-39 3D I bought used from a fellow RV pilot.

I have until 2/2/18 to get it installed and tested for the rebate.

I'm waiting on UPS right now for my GDL-82. :mrgreen:

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MrMorden
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby MrMorden » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:51 pm

ShawnM wrote:Point well taken and correct on the GDL-82. Single band. But it's designed to simply satisfy the mandate and be the easiest to install. And best of all it's a Garmin.

I already have a GDL-39 3D which is a "dual band" receiver for IN that is hardwired to my Aera 660. It offers bluetooth of course for my iPad mini running ForeFlight but with the Aera 660 I rarely use ForeFlight anymore. I do bring it as a backup if ever needed. I get everything I need on my Aera 660. The 3D version also gives me AHRS on my Aera 660.

The addition of the GDL-82 (with its easy install) will give me the OUT that is needed to satisfy the mandate and it'll wake up the towers so I can receive both bands on my GDL-39 3D. With my GDL-39 I will have a complete picture of all traffic.

With the $500 rebate it's a win/win for me. The rebate will reimburse me for the GDL-39 3D I bought used from a fellow RV pilot.

I have until 2/2/18 to get it installed and tested for the rebate.

I'm waiting on UPS right now for my GDL-82. :mrgreen:


I will probably do the same thing you are doing, but with the EchoUAT instead of the GDL-82. The Garmin is still in the races, but the extra $400 almost buys the GDL-39 and makes that a tough pill to swallow. I do love Garmin products though.
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ShawnM
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby ShawnM » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:55 pm

MrMorden wrote:I will probably do the same thing you are doing, but with the EchoUAT instead of the GDL-82. The Garmin is still in the races, but the extra $400 almost buys the GDL-39 and makes that a tough pill to swallow. I do love Garmin products though.


I fully understand. As I stated the rebate will "reimburse" me for the GDL-39 3D I bought about a year ago now. I wanted the GDL-82 because I have ALL Garmin avionics and I love their stuff. I drank the Garmin Kool-Aid years ago. :mrgreen:

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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby drseti » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:43 pm

ShawnM wrote:. I drank the Garmin Kool-Aid years ago. :mrgreen:


I drank the Garmin Kool-Aid almost two decades ago with the 430W, but when I tried to learn the G1000 around the same time, I felt completely overwhelmed. Now, with the Dynon Skyview system, I felt relief from information overload. That's why I went the full Dynon ADS-B In and Out solution for my current SportStar (but Garmin is also a good solution).
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby ShawnM » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:56 pm

drseti wrote:I drank the Garmin Kool-Aid almost two decades ago with the 430W, but when I tried to learn the G1000 around the same time, I felt completely overwhelmed. Now, with the Dynon Skyview system, I felt relief from information overload. That's why I went the full Dynon ADS-B In and Out solution for my current SportStar (but Garmin is also a good solution).


Too funny. :mrgreen:

I have the legacy Dynon D-100 and D-120 in my SportCruiser so the Dynon ADS-B was not an option. It is a great option for the Skyview systems. The GDL-82 will play nice with my Aera 660, GTX-327 and GDL-39.

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dstclair
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby dstclair » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:59 pm

Wm.Ince wrote:
MrMorden wrote:The reason the EchoUAT requires an antenna is because it's dual band, 978MHz and 1090MHz. The GDL-82 is 978MHz only.

Kind of comparing apples and oranges. The echoUAT is a dual band receiver and a single band (UAT) transmitter. The GDL-82 is a UAT transmitter only. They both transmit on the same frequentcy.
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ShawnM
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby ShawnM » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:08 pm

dstclair wrote:Kind of comparing apples and oranges. The echoUAT is a dual band receiver and a single band (UAT) transmitter. The GDL-82 is a UAT transmitter only. They both transmit on the same frequency.


I assumed he knew that but maybe not. Yes, they are both single band transmitters. The ECHO unit simply has the equivalent of a GDL-39 built in where as I have it as a separate unit. In the end it's the same setup. Well sort of, mine is all Garmin. :mrgreen:

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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby MrMorden » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:53 am

ShawnM wrote:
dstclair wrote:Kind of comparing apples and oranges. The echoUAT is a dual band receiver and a single band (UAT) transmitter. The GDL-82 is a UAT transmitter only. They both transmit on the same frequency.


I assumed he knew that but maybe not. Yes, they are both single band transmitters. The ECHO unit simply has the equivalent of a GDL-39 built in where as I have it as a separate unit. In the end it's the same setup. Well sort of, mine is all Garmin. :mrgreen:


Yes, I got it. Dual band receiver means you might still get reception if the transmitter on one band of a ground receiver is out. That is a good thing to me.
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ShawnM
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby ShawnM » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:18 am

MrMorden wrote:Yes, I got it. Dual band receiver means you might still get reception if the transmitter on one band of a ground receiver is out. That is a good thing to me.


I'm still not sure you've got it and I could be mistaken but......let's see if we can clarify this for everyone. There are 2 bands, 978 and 1090 for both IN and OUT ADS-B.

ADS-B IN:
1090 ES IN receives air to air traffic and data uplink traffic from ground towers, no weather. (unless you have ADS-B out to wake up the ground towers you'll only receive air to air 1090 traffic who have 1090 out in their aircraft, ie GTX-330ES transponders, and nothing from the ground towers)

978 UAT IN is traffic and weather broadcasting on the 978 band. This is from other 978 traffic or weather from the ground towers.


ADS-B OUT
1090 ES OUT is for turboprops and jets who fly above 18,000 feet and internationally. This is NOT us. :mrgreen: Can we "see" this traffic when they are in range of us, of course since we have 1090 IN on our GDL-39 or Echo UAT.

978 OUT is for GA aircraft below 18000 feet. That's why the GDL-82 is only single band 978 out. This is also why the Echo UAT is 978 out. We are required to have 978 OUT only by Jan. 1 2020.

Even with a dual band RECEIVER like my GDL-39 3D or Stratus you are not seeing the complete traffic picture around you. You need a 978 UAT OUT transmitter to wake up the ground stations to transmit the complete traffic picture to you. It's not a matter of reception.

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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby drseti » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:26 pm

ShawnM wrote: You need a 978 UAT OUT transmitter to wake up the ground stations to transmit the complete traffic picture to you. It's not a matter of reception.


That's not entirely correct. To see the complete traffic picture, you need to be ADS-B Out participating and validated. This can be accomplished with a 978 MHz UAT (in the US only, below 10,000 feet), or on 1090 MHz (anywhere, at any altitude). In either case, your UAT or Mode S Extended Squitter transponder has to be connected to an approved position source (GPS WAAS or equivalent) or you won't receive the whole traffic picture. In addition, with a dual-band receiver, you can get traffic directly from all participating aircraft, even when you're out of range of a ground station. With a single band receiver, your direct pings will be limited to the band you're receiving (either 978 or 1090). In other words, to get a complete picture, you need to be ADS-B Out (on either frequency) plus ADS-B in on both frequencies.

This is covered in depth on my two ADS-B EAA Webinars (search http://www.eaa.org/webinars).
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby ShawnM » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:52 pm

Yes, I really didn't want to get into ALL the details of how ADS-B worked, god knows there is enough info and youtube videos out there to explain it. I was giving a basic overview of the 1090 and 978 bands and what each does.

We as GA do not need 1090 out, only 978. Hence the GDL-82 and Echo UAT. And you need a UAT 978 below 18,000 feet. 1090ES OUT above 18,000 and 978 UAT OUT below 18,000. Maybe your 10,000 feet was a typo.

The complete picture is only available with ADS-B out. Of course your participating and validated. And by "picture" I mean you have to have a dual band receiver (ADS-B IN) to "see" this on your tablet or panel mounted GPS.

For those that just want to satisfy the mandate OUT is all that's required. You dont have to have IN and of course without IN you see nothing, no traffic and no weather. But the FAA can see you and broadcast your position to those with ADS-B IN.

And yes, you can get air-to-air data from both bands. I thought I stated this in my post.

And yes ALL ADS-B out boxes have to have a WAAS GPS position source. Both certified boxes we are discussing, Garmin and Echo both require a WAAS GPS for it's position source. I thought this was a given since it is stated in the rule. It also has to be an installed unit not a portable device.

There are MANY, MANY more details to ADS-B but I assumed most knew the basics by now. I was just giving a basic overview of both bands.

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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:35 pm

I think we all understand ADS-B by now and what the 2020 mandate requires.
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ShawnM
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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby ShawnM » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:40 pm

TimTaylor wrote:I think we all understand ADS-B by now and what the 2020 mandate requires.


To quote Paul “That’s not entirely correct” :mrgreen:

Maybe here on this forum they might but there are a few “old timers” at my home airport who might want to read up a bit.

My airport is inside the mode c veil of Tampa Intenationl but not in class b airspace. These guys think because they never fly in class b airspace they don’t need to comply with the mandate. Go figure.

To quote Jason Schappert “a good pilot is always learning” :mrgreen:

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Re: Affordable ADS-B out

Postby Wm.Ince » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:47 pm

drseti wrote:
ShawnM wrote: You need a 978 UAT OUT transmitter to wake up the ground stations to transmit the complete traffic picture to you. It's not a matter of reception.

That's not entirely correct . . . . . with a dual-band receiver, you can get traffic directly from all participating aircraft, even when you're out of range of a ground station. With a single band receiver, your direct pings will be limited to the band you're receiving (either 978 or 1090). In other words, to get a complete picture, you need to be ADS-B Out (on either frequency) plus ADS-B in on both frequencies.

Thank you for covering that oversight.
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