Sport Pilot Operation in Class B Airspace

[Dennis]

I was checking into getting an endorsement so I could land at tower-controlled airports and fly in class B airspace operating as a Sport Pilot. I learned that holding a Private Pilot license operating as a Sport Pilot, I don't need that endorsement. I did discover that there is confusion regarding operating in class B. Operations in a number of class B's, such as Chicago's O'Hare, are in fact prohibited according to EAA.

See the EAA site http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afm ... faqid=1131
The EAA site says"
" In accordance with this section, which is referenced as noted by 14 CFR 91.131, Operations in Class B Airspace, a pilot would need to hold at least a Private Pilot certificate or be a student receiving dual instruction with an authorized instructor in order to operate in these Class B areas. No solo students, sport, or recreational pilot operations are permitted.

Note that since this regulation disallows sport pilot "operations", a private pilot operating at the sport pilot level would not be allowed to fly into this airspace. " Hmmm . . .

I called AOPA and spoke to Erin who advised me that as a Private Pilot operating at the Sport Pilot level I can in fact request entry into Chicago's class B airspace and fly there. These FAA regs for Sport Pilots are sure confusing!

Fly safely.

Dennis

[Merlinspop]

I was checking into getting an endorsement so I could land at tower-controlled airports and fly in class B airspace operating as a Sport Pilot. I learned that holding a Private Pilot license operating as a Sport Pilot, I don't need that endorsement. I did discover that there is confusion regarding operating in class B. Operations in a number of class B's, such as Chicago's O'Hare, are in fact prohibited according to EAA.

See the EAA site http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afm ... faqid=1131
The EAA site says"
" In accordance with this section, which is referenced as noted by 14 CFR 91.131, Operations in Class B Airspace, a pilot would need to hold at least a Private Pilot certificate or be a student receiving dual instruction with an authorized instructor in order to operate in these Class B areas. No solo students, sport, or recreational pilot operations are permitted.

Note that since this regulation disallows sport pilot "operations", a private pilot operating at the sport pilot level would not be allowed to fly into this airspace. " Hmmm . . .

I called AOPA and spoke to Erin who advised me that as a Private Pilot operating at the Sport Pilot level I can in fact request entry into Chicago's class B airspace and fly there. These FAA regs for Sport Pilots are sure confusing!

Fly safely.

Dennis

To your first part... yes, as a Private Pilot, you already have been trained to operate in Class B (and C and D) Airspace (E, G, too, of course) - or at least should have.
As for the second part, I believe the EAA's interpretation of the (probably vaguely and/or poorly written) reg is incorrect*. I agree wth AOPA's interpretation that a PPL can conduct "operations" in class B (while complying with all the other requirements for operating in Class B).

*I'm neither an Aviation Lawyer nor an FAA employee, so I very may well be wrong. As with aviation itself, proceed at your own risk.

[dstclair]

The full FAR is:

Code of Federal Regulations

Sec. 91.131

Part 91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B--Flight Rules
General

Sec. 91.131

Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with Sec. 91.129 and the following rules:
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral limits of that area.

(3) Any person conducting pilot training operations at an airport within a Class B airspace area must comply with any procedures established by ATC for such operations in that area.

(b) Pilot requirements.

(1) No person may take off or land a civil aircraft at an airport within a Class B airspace area or operate a civil aircraft within a Class B airspace area unless--

(i) The pilot in command holds at least a private pilot certificate;

(ii) The pilot in command holds a recreational pilot certificate and has met--

(A) The requirements of Sec. 61.101(d) of this chapter; or

(B) The requirements for a student pilot seeking a recreational pilot certificate in Sec. 61.94 of this chapter;
(iii) The pilot in command holds a sport pilot certificate and has met--

(A) The requirements of Sec. 61.325 of this chapter;

It's pretty clear Sport Pilots and private pilots can operate in Class B airspace.

[David]

I was checking into getting an endorsement so I could land at tower-controlled airports and fly in class B airspace operating as a Sport Pilot. I learned that holding a Private Pilot license operating as a Sport Pilot, I don't need that endorsement. I did discover that there is confusion regarding operating in class B. Operations in a number of class B's, such as Chicago's O'Hare, are in fact prohibited according to EAA.

Dennis,

I believe your question is regarding flying in and landing at class b airports.

Sign off and approval from ATC to fly in the space is required. Regarding landing see the bottom quote. This is what I believe - I also dug myself a hole during my check-ride, but got out when I explain yes but not the busy dozen. I couldn't name them, but followed up I would not anyway. You don't mix up slow GA airplanes with busy traffic and fast jets.

Quote from avsoprt.org;

"A more relevant question would be: what airports are off limits to a Sport Pilot?

No Sport Pilot may operate in or through Class D, C, or B airspace (formerly called Airport Traffic Areas, Airport Radar Service Areas, and Terminal Control Areas, respectively) unless he or she has received specific instruction on required equipment and procedures, and a logbook endorsement from a flight instructor authorizing operation in such airspace. Once properly trained and endorsed, you have nearly the whole country (something like 15,000 airports) available to you.

There is a specific exception: the FARs list a dozen of the country's busiest airports, where Sport Pilot operations (takeoffs and landings) are explicitly prohibited. Pursuant to §91.131(b)(2), solo student, sport, and recreational pilot operations are not permitted at any of the following airports:
•Atlanta, GA (The William B. Hartsfield Atlanta International Airport)
•Boston, MA (General Edward Lawrence Logan International Airport)
•Chicago, IL (Chicago-O'Hare International Airport)
•Dallas, TX (Dallas/Fort Worth Regional Airport)
•Los Angeles, CA (Los Angeles International Airport)
•Miami, FL (Miami International Airport)
•Newark, NJ (Newark International Airport)
•New York, NY (John F. Kennedy International Airport)
•New York, NY (LaGuardia Airport)
•San Francisco, CA (San Francisco International Airport)
•Washington, DC (Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport)
•Andrews Air Force Base, MD

Other than the above, a Sport Pilot is authorized to operate into or out of any public use airport in the US, provided he or she has received the appropriate airspace training and logbook endorsement."

There are others on the forum more qualified to add to this.

[MrMorden]

That reg says no operations at the airPORT, not in the surrounding airSPACE. I think sport pilots can operate in any class B or C ( with the endorsement) but cannot conduct operations like taking off from or landing at those listed airports.

[roger lee]

You can always fly under them or over them. With the SP endorsements and tower clearance you can fly through them

[Dennis]

You can always fly under them or over them. With the SP endorsements and tower clearance you can fly through them

Fly over them? Really? Chicago Class B extends to 12,000 MSL. Which ones are lower than 10,000?

Fly safely,
Dennis

[FastEddieB]

You can always fly under them or over them. With the SP endorsements and tower clearance you can fly through them

Fly over them? Really? Chicago Class B extends to 12,000 MSL. Which ones are lower than 10,000?

Fly safely,
Dennis

New York is 7,000'.

I can tell you it's quite a view!

[ct4me]

Phoenix is 9K

[srhalter58]

I thougth you still needed clearance to fly over a class C airport?

[sgallagher]

I just received my license for sport pilot, and fly a 1940 Taylorcraft. When I received my training I also was instructed in radio and airspace, and therefore received a log book entry on my instruction allowing me to fly through the airspace. However you still have to follow proper protocol, and fly at the designated altitude for the shelf you are flying thru. If you are a light sport pilot and fly an older plane like mine that has no transponder you need to call an hour out to get clearance. If your flying something newer and have a transponder you will have to read the FAR rules on this as I'm Not 100% sure. But I believe you still have to call. Like I said you will have to check the FAR for verification on this.

[MrMorden]

I think without a transponder I'd just go around the Mode C veil, unless I had to get to an airport inside it.

[3Dreaming]

I think without a transponder I'd just go around the Mode C veil, unless I had to get to an airport inside it.

Since their airplane does not have an engine driven electrical system they don't need a transponder inside the mode C veil. They can fly right up to the class B airspace without doing anything.

[MrMorden]

I think without a transponder I'd just go around the Mode C veil, unless I had to get to an airport inside it.

Since their airplane does not have an engine driven electrical system they don't need a transponder inside the mode C veil. They can fly right up to the class B airspace without doing anything.

Oh you are right, I forgot the exemption for that...cool! They are ADS-B exempt as well. Makes me want to buy a Luscombe just to thumb my nose at the FAA.

[David Pavlich]

Just a thought from a non-pilot that has several customers that fly the big stuff. First, not one of the big iron pilots that I've spoken to think that 172s and Archers should be landing at a Class B airport. They cite the approach speeds of the big guys is faster than many GA planes running at full throttle. Is this a fair assessment?

And secondary to this, it seems to me that an area that is populous enough to have a Class B airport would have a lot of other airports in the area that would be more GA friendly. Is this a case of "I have the right to land at most Class B airports, there for I will" not regarding the disparity between aircraft, or should GA pilots flying slow airplanes, relative to the big stuff, use discretion when considering what airport to land at?

I'm not trying to be contrarian here, I'm just relaying what my airline pilot flying customers told me when we were discussing GA flying in the mix with the big jets.

David