The lsa aircraft that have thus far impressed me.

[tl-3000pilot]

ow do you like the feel of push/pull control tubes/rods as opposed to all cables?
Bill Canino seems to be a stand-up individual, so I can see why you have had 5-years free of regrets. He does not seem to be the type of man who would represent anything mediocre.
.....
Where are you located dstclair? Did they deliver your Sting or did you fly there to pick it up? Did they offer familiarization training or flights?

Though the TL-3000 Sirius is at the top of my list, I must really get in some low-wing time, just to be sure.

Bill's a straight-forward guy and stands behind his products. Good person to do business with.

I'm just north of Dallas so it was an easy Southwest Airlines hop up to Little Rock to test fly the Sting S3 (current model at the time). We spent 1-2 hrs on the ground, pulling the cowl, checking build quality, pulling inspection plates and discussing Rotax/airframe maintenance. We then took the S3 up for a bit over an hour going through slow flight, stalls, non-aerobatic wing-overs, cruise then came back to the airport. In retrospect, Bill is definitely a trusting guy since this particular plane only had brakes on the pilot side. I just hopped in and off we went! I'd flown several LSA's and this was clearly my favorite. CTsw was #2 but I'm a low-wing guy. Also, at 6'4" I hate hitting my head on overhead wings

I believe officially Sport Air offers up to 5 hrs of transition time with each sale. Bill stated when I purchased that we'd fly until I was comfortable. Just checked my log book and I flew exactly 5.0 hrs before taking 595L home. Bill was my check pilot but I believe he uses a CFI now. Insurance companies require 5 hrs.

The S4 has some definite upgrades from the S3. There's a forum member who has an S4 that can comment on those features.

Can't really comment push/pull control tubes vs. cables. I had a hiatus from flying before buying my plane and have 99% of time in the last 5 years with tubes.

Good Luck in your quest!

Thanks again!

though I am a high-wing guy, some of these low-wing aircraft are quite tempting indeed.

I do have time as a passenger in a few low-wing GA aircraft and the only thing that I noticed that I did not like, was the little less ground visibility and the fact that you can see the wings swaying a bit forwards and backwards in reference to the ground. Turning base to final in a low-wing is a dream compared to the high-wing aircraft that I have thus far flown though. It is my understanding that many new LSA designers have addressed that issue the best they could in a high-wing, providing more base to final visibility.

I have watched some videos of the Sting S-3 and S-4 in action and they seem to be some very great/solid flying aircraft, well built! Possibly the Beech of LSA aircraft.

Pricing on the TL line-up seems to be fair as well compared to that of many others.

Safe and happy flying to you!

tl-3000pilot.

[tu16]

Oops.. Some technical issues...

[tu16]

I'd be surprised if the Sirius comes in at less than 800lbs typically equipped...

I was surprised to learn that my rental Sting S3 has 828lbs empty weight equipped with nothing but basic VFR and BRS. Simalrly equipped alll-metal Sierra had 800lbs, and Evektor w/o BRS - 760lbs. I'd guess Sting S3 has more heavy fiberglass in it than light carbon-fiber With my 6'4"/240lbs "airframe" I can not legally and safely take anybody from my family to fly with me even one circuit in Sting... Not that they would ever want to So it's all good for resulting "mission" of flying alone... But some may want to pay some attention to the payload claims - there's a lot of slight of hand there. The proof is in W&B sheet for a specific plane.

[drseti]

Simalrly equipped alll-metal Sierra had 800lbs, and Evektor w/o BRS - 760lbs.

The BRS does indeed add quite a bit of weight (though, for some, a parachute remains essential equipment). My rather heavily equipped SportStar weighs 766 empty (actual number, measured on three scales by me personally -- the book number was actually 20.4 pounds less! )

[tu16]

Another little detail to consider - ease of access to the engine for preflight inspection/maintenance.
Tecnam Sierra provides total access to the whole thing by two centrally hinged wings in cowling that are hold down by just two latches:



The access give you capability to examine every hose clamp and every bolt quickly during regular preflight. Excellent!
The aluminum there is pretty paper-thin and to engage/turn/spring-loaded safety stopper on the latches one has to press and both locking surfaces are always slightly deformed in a process and sometimes do not engage completely or at all after the turn. When "At all" it easily checkable by habitual checking pull on the latch. "Partial" engagement - is slightly other matter

Here's a funny story. I've just started renting the same beloved Sierra I got my wings in. Did a preflight, taxied out, did a runup and off we go at all systems nominal.... At about 50 foot off the ground - BLAM! As if a shotgun went off and I lost my forward vision with incredible racket and vibration around. My first crazy impression was that my prop blades somehow bent inward and are blocking my vision and shaking my plane It took probably couple long seconds to figure out that it is the darn cowling gullwing somehow sat tight during runup, takeoff roll - and decided to disengage itself when we were in the air! Its paper-thin aliminum was wrapping itself in reverse bend totally around the other side, slamming into it with dangling latches, and immediately flopping back - with what looked like 3000 rpm blur at least! Looking out on a side I saw I'm over runway but was not sure how far from the other end with all this blur in front of me. I had a nice 6000ft runway at the sea level, so I just lowered the nose, managed the speed, and the throttle, judging height of the runway and attitude by looking out around a flopping mess - and, boy, it was one of those greased landings with enough room to break and turnout at the opposite end, still flopping like a mad duck Cheers to 6000ft runways! An examination showed a cosmetic damage to the opposite gullwing surface - small dings and paint scratches and slightly bent out of shape cowling gullwing that was flapping. The hinge was ok.

Now I'm much more content with small circular inspection openings with solid latches on Evektor and Sting with securely fastened cowling...

[jnmeade]

Some of these preferences are just plain silly. Many airplanes function just perfectly with a variety of designs for some of these issues.

For example, how many high wing planes can you count with push-rods?
What is the benefit of a throttle quadrant as opposed to a push or vernier that makes it important?
stick versus yoke - are you serious? Who cares?

In my opinion, most of these preferences are an indication of not much experience or of not realizing that it doesn't make any difference when you get right down to it.

Now, high-wing vs low-wing when you are a farmer or a pipe line patroller or fish spotter - yes, there is an difference.

Tail wheel vs nose wheel, not much difference except in a few extreme cases.

I can see it now. "Would you like to fly this Beech Staggerwing?"
"Uh, no thanks, I don't fly biplanes."


http://home.comcast.net/~biplane0/stagg ... ngRyan.jpg

Well, I'm not competent to embed an image.

[N918KT]

What is the benefit of a throttle quadrant as opposed to a push or vernier that makes it important?

I've noticed that when I fly a plane with a push-pull throttle (the ones used in the 162 and 152), my shoulder gets sore after holding on to the throttle for awhile. Maybe a throttle quadrant, like the ones used in the Piper Cherokees are better.

[tu16]

I can see it now. "Would you like to fly this Beech Staggerwing?"
"Uh, no thanks, I don't fly biplanes."



Well, I'm not competent to embed an image.

Beautiful image! You did everything right. Just make sure that "img" tag contains picture URL, not the google search one...

BTW here's a fresh video from Germany with interview with Tecnam's Paolo Pascale about Astore and aerobatic LSA Snap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWZSa-UUgXA

Boy, this Astore for me is up there with Bristell on drool-o-meter I bet it also pulls its weight in gold on a price-o-meter...

[tl-3000pilot]

Another little detail to consider - ease of access to the engine for preflight inspection/maintenance.
Tecnam Sierra provides total access to the whole thing by two centrally hinged wings in cowling that are hold down by just two latches:



The access give you capability to examine every hose clamp and every bolt quickly during regular preflight. Excellent!
The aluminum there is pretty paper-thin and to engage/turn/spring-loaded safety stopper on the latches one has to press and both locking surfaces are always slightly deformed in a process and sometimes do not engage completely or at all after the turn. When "At all" it easily checkable by habitual checking pull on the latch. "Partial" engagement - is slightly other matter

Here's a funny story. I've just started renting the same beloved Sierra I got my wings in. Did a preflight, taxied out, did a runup and off we go at all systems nominal.... At about 50 foot off the ground - BLAM! As if a shotgun went off and I lost my forward vision with incredible racket and vibration around. My first crazy impression was that my prop blades somehow bent inward and are blocking my vision and shaking my plane It took probably couple long seconds to figure out that it is the darn cowling gullwing somehow sat tight during runup, takeoff roll - and decided to disengage itself when we were in the air! Its paper-thin aliminum was wrapping itself in reverse bend totally around the other side, slamming into it with dangling latches, and immediately flopping back - with what looked like 3000 rpm blur at least! Looking out on a side I saw I'm over runway but was not sure how far from the other end with all this blur in front of me. I had a nice 6000ft runway at the sea level, so I just lowered the nose, managed the speed, and the throttle, judging height of the runway and attitude by looking out around a flopping mess - and, boy, it was one of those greased landings with enough room to break and turnout at the opposite end, still flopping like a mad duck Cheers to 6000ft runways! An examination showed a cosmetic damage to the opposite gullwing surface - small dings and paint scratches and slightly bent out of shape cowling gullwing that was flapping. The hinge was ok.

Now I'm much more content with small circular inspection openings with solid latches on Evektor and Sting with securely fastened cowling...

That's actually a very nice looking Sierra! Those sliding canopies sure are nice.

Speaking of cowling doors opening while in flight, I had the very same thing happen to me minutes after purchasing the C-150. It happened right after rotation at about 75-ft. Fortunately I had a very qualified CFI with me, as I was still a student at the time. He too had just enough runway left to get her back on the ground safely. The catches in the old twist-locks were worn, so we had them replaced at the expense of the seller. Was quite scary indeed, very noisy affair! Only damage was a little bend in the cowling door, which was easily bent back into shape.

Thanks!

tl-3000pilot.

p.s. You're right, having an easy access cowling inspection door is nice.

[tl-3000pilot]

Some of these preferences are just plain silly. Many airplanes function just perfectly with a variety of designs for some of these issues.

For example, how many high wing planes can you count with push-rods?
What is the benefit of a throttle quadrant as opposed to a push or vernier that makes it important?
stick versus yoke - are you serious? Who cares?

In my opinion, most of these preferences are an indication of not much experience or of not realizing that it doesn't make any difference when you get right down to it.

Now, high-wing vs low-wing when you are a farmer or a pipe line patroller or fish spotter - yes, there is an difference.

Tail wheel vs nose wheel, not much difference except in a few extreme cases.

I can see it now. "Would you like to fly this Beech Staggerwing?"
"Uh, no thanks, I don't fly biplanes."


http://home.comcast.net/~biplane0/stagg ... ngRyan.jpg

Well, I'm not competent to embed an image.

Hello and thanks for the reply!

Yes, I am a low-time GA Pilot/VFR with just under 200-hrs, but have been an aviation nut my whole life and was an airport bum for about a year prior to receiving my PPL.

I apologize if my personal preferences aggravate you, as it is not my intent, but here are some answers that I hope will make you better understand my personal wants, needs and opinions.

Q: "For example, how many high wing planes can you count with push-rods?"

A: I only know of the TL-ULTRALIGHT TL-3000 SIRIUS myself (top of my list thus far), but am sure there are a few more. My first experience, or when learning about push/pull control rods/tubes was with a Socata Tampico. I asked the owner why it had that feature and his claim was that "it provided a sense of safety, as well as a more immediate feel/response to the control surfaces." Being that I want to feel as safe as I possibly can when flying, I too would like the feature of push/pull control tubes/rods. There must be a reason why manufacturers of both LSA and GA aircraft incorporate such a feature, other than possibly being cost effective. This feature is also found in many, if not all aerobatic aircraft, again, for a reason. Why more low-wing incorporate such a feature than high-wing, I'm not sure? If it assist in making the aircraft safer in any way, then it is a preference for me. I have actually heard of a few accidents (exremely small and few between) that were caused by cables either breaking or coming loose due to stress, faulty connections or the planes being flown beyond their limits due to an un-controllable situation and feel that the push/pull control rods/tubes may help in the reduction of such a problem.

Q: "What is the benefit of a throttle quadrant as opposed to a push or vernier that makes it important?"

A: Mainly comfort and I personally feel that it looks sportier, as well as more modern. Its actually an option for the RV-10, must be a reason behind that.

Q: "stick versus yoke - are you serious? Who cares?"

A: I care, apparently there are numerous others that care whether or not a plane has sticks or yokes or it would have never have become an option or choice. As I have stated in previous postings, I have only ever flown Cessna high-wing aircraft (PIC), so yokes are all that I know at this time. I have also stated that I certainly need to fly a stick, just to see how I like it. I actually know many Pilots that prefer one or the other. Actually, there is a gentleman that purchased the Paradise P-1 for his flight school, for many reasons, one of which was the fact that it had yokes. I have also recently learned of another LSA high-wing Manufacturer who will now start offering yokes as an option. Again, there must be a reason for this.

Q: "Now, high-wing vs low-wing when you are a farmer or a pipe line patroller or fish spotter - yes, there is an difference."

A: My very first day hanging out at the local airport, I actually heard a discussion between (2) Pilots as too which they preferred, "high-wing or low-wing", there was even a rocking chair that said "FOR HIGH-WING PILOTS ONLY", Lol! Anyway, I know of many Pilots that claim to have a preference between the (2). I just happen to like high-wing aircraft over low-wing. As I have stated in previous postings, there are a few low-wing aircraft out there with great design features that could make me change my mind. I had also mentioned my main dis-like for a low-wing, which is the fact that you can see the wings swaying back and fourth in reference to the ground when flying in turbulent weather, something I do not see or notice in a high-wing. For some reason, I feel a lot safer in a high-wing.

Q: "Tail wheel vs nose wheel, not much difference except in a few extreme cases."

A: I've never commented on tail-wheel, but I do prefer nose wheel and find them easier to maneuver on the ground (not having to weave back and fourth). I've logged 1-hour in a tail-wheel (C-160) and found it a pleasure to fly.

Q: "I can see it now. "Would you like to fly this Beech Staggerwing?"
"Uh, no thanks, I don't fly biplanes."

A: One should never assume, as I happen to be a great fan of Beech aircraft, especially the beautiful Stagger-wing and would never pass up the opportunity to fly it or any other plane that I feel I would be competent enough o fly! I never claimed that I would not fly a plane that did not have the features I like, I just won't spend 100+k on a a plane that does not have all of the features I like.

Just boils down to one's personal preference I guess.

Happy and Safe Flying to you!

tl-3000pilot.

[jnmeade]

What is the benefit of a throttle quadrant as opposed to a push or vernier that makes it important?

I've noticed that when I fly a plane with a push-pull throttle (the ones used in the 162 and 152), my shoulder gets sore after holding on to the throttle for awhile. Maybe a throttle quadrant, like the ones used in the Piper Cherokees are better.

Both the Piper throttle quadrant and the Cessna throttle have a friction lock mechanism. If it works, there is no difference. The Cessna may have vernier control and when you are flying a T210 and are dialing in manifold pressure, it is nice to have a precise adjustment available.

The problem with the Cessna 150/152 is it is old, worn out and no one has fixed it. A twist of the knob or lock collar should do it but often it doesn't. If you are holding a throttle in on climb out so it won't walk back on you, it takes very little pressure.

[Jack Tyler]

Re: the C162, read the GAMA reports on quarterly sales carefully. One of the footnotes points out the S-LSA sales for the C162 (and several others) are not reported in the individual manufacturers numbers (most of the pages of the report) but are included in the summary tables at the beginning of the report. The way I read the footnoted report description, to determine C162 sales one has to sum up all the non-LSA piston singles sales and subtract them from the total piston single sales to determine the remaining total S-LSA sales...and then subtract the other S-LSA sales to get the C162 sales.

OTOH a 'sale' is defined by GAMA as the delivery of an a/c from its point of manufacture (factory), and it is allowed to include deliveries where the manufacturer may continue to be a co-owner (along with the Cessna dealer). I think it's pretty difficult to determine the health of C162 sales solely from the GAMA report...but for Q1 2-13 they look quite anemic.

"[Footnote] 6. Cessna Aircraft Company C162 SkyCatcher (SLSA), CubCrafters CC11, Diamond Aircraft HK36 Motor Glider and Flight Design GmbH
ASTM CT Series models are included in civil make-model shipment total, but not summary tables. This change is intended to properly capture all deliveries by the companies listed while maintaining a consistent baseline of shipments from previous years' reports. GAMA will further integrate CS-VLA and S-LSA aircraft into future shipment reports"
http://www.gama.aero/files/documents/20 ... t0509A.pdf

[FastEddieB]

[quote="jnmeade"]

For example, how many high wing planes can you count with push-rods?/quote]

Mine?



It really is quite an engineering feat.

Here's a video of how the side stick motion gets transmitted initially:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIMr4pzo ... AUSLfkBO7w

Anyway, rods all the way are great. Nothing wrong with cables, but overall I think rods provide a slightly more direct feel, and seem more robust.

Then again, if you threw all those rods and levers into a box and weighed them, you'd have part of the reason my Empty Weight is over 860 lbs!

[Merlinspop]

As I said before, you are the only person who you need to please because you're looking for a personal use airplane, so as far as I'm concerned, wanting a specific color of stitching in the seats seam is perfectly legitimate (as an extreme example). I'm just offering up food for thought. Use your own salt.

Cable vs tubes. As noted, engineering tubes for control surfaces in a high wing is a feat. You asked why. Well, look at the path that has to be travelled. From a yoke, the motion starts behind the panel, then up a support structure to the wing, then out to the wing, then convert back and forth to up and down. There's a lot of turns and bends that have to be negotiated. Lots of fittings, joints and connectors (that can fail). Cable runs have to follow the same path, but can be made with a single cable, running through pulleys and fairleads (that can also fail, as can the swagged ends). If the designer wasn't scrimping to save grams of weight and spec'd an adequate cable size, and if the builder/designer rigged it correctly, you're not really going to tell a great deal of difference flying with SP privs. But, if that's a requirement for you, then it's a requirement.

Throttle... I prefer a levered throttle vs a knob to push or pull. But then again, with a knob on the panel, you can say "balls to the wall" every time you all full throttle. But no matter, I'm just happy when it gets louder and I go faster with added throttle.

Stick vs Yoke... Yokes make it easier to get in (you don't have to get your legs around a stick. Sticks really feel much more intuitive. Sticks can get in the way when you need to use that 'emergency empty gatorade bottle.' Just because that's all you know don't rule them out. They're the original "Joy Stick".

B

[tl-3000pilot]

For example, how many high wing planes can you count with push-rods?/quote]

Mine?



It really is quite an engineering feat.

Here's a video of how the side stick motion gets transmitted initially:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIMr4pzo ... AUSLfkBO7w

Anyway, rods all the way are great. Nothing wrong with cables, but overall I think rods provide a slightly more direct feel, and seem more robust.

Then again, if you threw all those rods and levers into a box and weighed them, you'd have part of the reason my Empty Weight is over 860 lbs!

Hello FasteddieB,

Thanks for posting that!

I also watched the video you made with the Go-Pro mounted on your head (Sky Arrow Post Annual Test Flight Feb 2013) and noticed that 99%, if not all of your stick in-put was with minimal wrist movement, really nice!

http://youtu.be/0WF6gT-dj-Q

That a/c really gets up and goes as well, nothing like the C-150/152! Looks like you were at pattern altitude well befor ethe end of the runway.

The Sky Arrow's cock-pit and rear mounted propeller reminds me much of a fighter-jet.
Really nice a/c you've got there!

Respectfully,

tl-3000.