Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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howardnmn
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by howardnmn »

Lively topic

I agree w Paul: " light sport" + tail# has worked for me 99.99% of time w ATC since 2009. They all seem to know light-sport means you're relatively slow w max two souls on board. Less chatter the better.

Once a class C-airspace controller asked me for type--I made up three letters -- Sierra-Victor-Hotel (for Savannah ADV)-- and no more questions

Also, once a tower knows I'm slow and small, they never have refused if I ask for a "short approach" so I get on the ground as fast as a average-speed GA a/c that typically flys very wide square pattern. Downwind abeam threshold I do steep 180. Much more fun too [not suggested when CFI on board]

My tail # includes '999' which I call "triple niner" after first call of "...niner-niner-niner..." That saves a syllables too
Remos GX nXES. N999GX
smith ranch/san rafael airport (CA35)
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theskunk
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by theskunk »

howardnmn wrote:
My tail # includes '999' which I call "triple niner" after first call of "...niner-niner-niner..." That saves a syllables too
I used to do this with "sportcruiser Triple seven november golf" until somebody actually thought they were looking for a boeing 777 during a traffic call... I now actually do the 'seven seven seven november golf'... which usually gets shortened after the first call...
jnmeade
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by jnmeade »

The FAA has some specific ideas on what you should use for a call sign. They can be found in the AIM 4.2.4.

"3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer's name or model is stated, the prefix “N” is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.

EXAMPLE-
1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.

2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit “Experimental” after initial contact)."

The FCC is the governing body on radio use. Here is part of what they say in paragraph 87.107

"§ 87.107 Station identification.

(a) Aircraft station. Identify by one of the following means:

(1) Aircraft radio station call sign.

(2) Assigned FCC control number (assigned to ultralight aircraft).

(3) The type of aircraft followed by the characters of the registration marking (“N” number) of the aircraft, omitting the prefix letter “N”. When communication is initiated by a ground station, an aircraft station may use the type of aircraft followed by the last three characters of the registration marking.

(4) The FAA assigned radiotelephony designator of the aircraft operating organization followed by the flight identification number.

(5) An aircraft identification approved by the FAA for use by aircraft stations participating in an organized flying activity of short duration."

If one of those approaches doesn't work, then I suppose we can make up designators, such as "light sport". Making up designators may work, especially locally, but it is not the preferred method of communicating.

My bottom line is we should use standard phraseology when it is provided, and it is explicitly provided. It is easy to expand or explain if ATC is not sure of your flight characteristics.

So, what do you say when you fly your T6? You say North American, just like you say when you fly your P-51. If they want to know the difference they can ask. You say Cessna for nearly every Cessna single, and you say Twin Cessna for any piston twin Cessna, even though they have quite a wide range of speeds and flight characteristics. ATC seems to be able to live with that.

Since this topic will get beaten to death, how about "looking" when ATC gives you a traffic advisory? Sure, you hear "looking" more than anything else, but it has no meaning to ATC. All ATC wants to know is how and what kind of separation to provide, and "looking" does not do that. Tally Ho. No Joy. With you. Light sport.
ct4me
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by ct4me »

I'm not so concerned with what makes them happy, as that they have an idea what my performance is and what I look like. Clearly, communicating the way we're "supposed to" doesn't always work, because the information is not in the FAA database/documents that the controllers use. Or, individually, some of the controllers haven't bothered to stay up on aircraft.
I'd like to know that the controller knows the difference between a typical light sport and, say, a Lancair Evolution or Velocity. He needs to know that I can land on a 700 ft strip, and the Lancair can't. He needs to know how fast/slow I go, how much I can climb, and how I might be affected by turbulence or jet wake. When in a crowded pattern, I want to know that they know what I look like, and can tell others.
Case in point... I'm flying SE near Salt Lake City at 11,5000. The controller asks me, for unknown reasons, to go to 13,500. Then he gets all p1ssy because I don't go there immediately. My CT can go there, and beyond, but not very quickly. Few small planes can.
In communications with the FAA on this problem in 2010, they readily admitted there was a problem, mostly associated with a system that can't accept any more designators (they're full!). They were going to try and incorporate "specific candidate aircraft types" sometime soon, and indicated they would address Light Sport Aircraft as one of their first additions. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, that hasn't happened yet.
In the meantime, we'll muddle along, punching holes in the sky....using "what makes them Happy'...
Tim
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Super Cub
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by Super Cub »

Hey Paul, there are 7 Flight Designs within 100 miles of you and another one out at 120.
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drseti
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by drseti »

Wow, that's quite an improvement over five years ago, when there were none. I guess this proves what Flight Design has been saying about their market penetration... I'm impressed!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Torque
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by Torque »

N8053H Homebuilt Yellow Low wing....If I say Experimental Avenger I bet they are looking for a war bird.. And if I say Fisher Avenger I bet they would have no idea what I am flying...So its....November 8053 Hotel Homebuilt yellow low wing...It might be long but I believe it gives the info everyone needs.

I do not always put the N number first...Sometimes I say Homebuilt yellow low wing November 8053 Hotel.

Then when I am 5 miles out coming in to the pattern I do not say just 5 miles out. I say...N8053H 5 miles or 10 mins away from 3IS5.

I share my place with a 172. One day I was just getting ready to taxi when I heard over the radio the N number for this 172 and the pilot saying..I am 5 miles out straight in to land...That got my attention fast. I spoke right up..N5588R..Not sure if thats his N number but I used it for this..memory going I guess..But I said Brad I am taxing on the runway for a west departure. I said I will hold short. He said no takeoff I will hold. As I hear this I see him fly over off to my side in the pattern, that is how fast that 172 went 5 miles.

I was at this same spot one day and anounced..5 miles out coming in to land...After I landed I had a helicopter pilot come up to me and say...I heard you anounce but then it took what seemed like forever to see you, I thought you changed your mind or was somewhere else. I said no I am really slow..He said..I see this now...

After this I started saying how many mins until I arrive not just how far out I am.
jnmeade
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by jnmeade »

We Experimental pilots need to remember that there are some operating limitations in our certification and we are required to advise ATC of our Experimental status when we talk to them so they can consider that when they issue clearances. Usually just one mention is enough and then we can drop it, but some controllers use "Experimental" in place of the N in N number or manufacturer. No need to use Experimental when talking to non-ATC listeners as far as I know.

It is interesting to note that many of us have developed a standard way of communicating our airplane information. We probably did that based on training, local customs, experience and perceived needs. If you look at the replies, it is noteworthy that many of us, I include myself sometimes, tend to be stereotypical in our communications.

Each of us having developed something that works for us at one time and place may carry it forward and then wonder why others don't understand us somewhere else. It's been a good discussion if just to cause us all to think of what we say and why we say it as opposed to rattling off our habituated call.
srhalter58
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by srhalter58 »

I used Remos 474SW the last time I used Flight following in Central Wisconsin, no questions from ATC. I lso land at OSH but they have a couple Remos airplanes based there so they are probably famliar with them.
Remos G3-600 N474SW
Torque
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by Torque »

It's been a good discussion if just to cause us all to think of what we say and why we say it as opposed to rattling off our habituated call.[/quote]


This is the reason I lurk on forums like this. I believe a lot can be learned just from sharing stories on topics as this.
One thing for sure it does not matter what your saying on the radio if you do not have a good radio or headset, and one more thing.....Not everyone has a radio or is required to. Sometimes we forget that.

Myself I have never flown into a towered airport and don't plan to, unless its OshKosh.
sportjen
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by sportjen »

I just bought my SportCruiser last week and flew it into my tower airport. Yesterday was the first time I flew it much around the airport, and it was left closed pattern.

It's an S-LSA, so far (considering switching it to E-LSA, see other thread).

I always identified myself as "SportCruiser..."

ATC in the tower often replied to me as "Light Sport....." and told other traffic about me as "Light Sport....."

I just continued responding to them as "SportCruiser....," and after a while, they began responding to me as "SportCruiser...."

It was a familiarity issue, and they know me there from years of flying, like me, etc... I am very cooperative, but I'm also trying to comply with the AIM, which indicates make or model..., and "SportCruiser" is the model.

And BTW, I never indicated I was light sport to them. They read it on the side of my plane with binoculars.

I think they initially thought I would be slow, until they asked me if I'd like to go ahead of slower traffic ahead (a Cessna). I said, "No, I'll slow down for him," as I like to be cooperative and helpful. :)

Truth is, they remembered me from my older Cessna Cardinal, and they learned that the SportCruiser outflies the Cardinal, particularly in the pattern, as it cruises at the same speed exactly, yet climbs faster and lands slower (better both).

All in all, at the end of working the pattern for a while, they seemed very pleased with the plane. I identified myself to them as the same pilot who has flown the Cardinal there for years, and they told me with a chuckle n the radio that they like that Cardinal.

End of the day: They were calling me "SportCruiser...." for all calls, and enjoying our flight/radio interaction, as I am pleasant and precise—the pilot they know they can count on me to comply with an unusual instruction if needed when the airspace is congested or someone else messes up (like if they fly a weird-wide pattern or if they don't comply with something, the tower knows they can call on me to accommodate their issues).

:)

Jen
Flim63
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by Flim63 »

I know this thread is old but here is another perspective...

For those you you that missed my post in introductions, I have been a sport pilot for 3 1/2 years, Rans S-12 owner and C162 renter. I was also an air traffic controller at Los Angeles Center for 24 years and now work in the airspace office at HQ.

The VAST majority of controllers are not pilots or even airplane buffs. The tower atc probably get to know the different models cause they see them out the window but us radar folk just get to know performance and how to call traffic. Other posts have posted the AIM and ICAO (believe it or not, the FAA lags way behind in adopting and training personel on ICAO stuff). The 7110.65 is the ATC handbook and says this:

2-4-20. AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION

Use the full identification in reply to aircraft with similar sounding identifications. For other aircraft, the same identification may be used in reply that the pilot used in his/her initial callup except use the correct identification after communications have been established. Identify aircraft as follows:

a. U.S. registry aircraft. State one of the following:

REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-8, Radio Message Format.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-9, Abbreviated Transmissions.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-15, Emphasis for Clarity.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-17, Numbers Usage.

1. Civil. State the prefix “November” when establishing initial communications with U.S. registered aircraft followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration. The controller may state the aircraft type, the model, the manufacturer's name, followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration if used by the pilot on the initial or subsequent call.

EXAMPLE-
Air traffic controller's initiated call:

“November One Two Three Four Golf.”
“November One Two Three Four.”

Responding to pilot's initial or subsequent call:

“Jet Commander One Two Three Four Papa.”
“Bonanza One Two Three Four Tango.”
“Sikorsky Six Three Eight Mike Foxtrot.”







Interesting to note that the AIM says pilots have to wait for a controller to abbreviate and our rules say we wait for you to do so.

A confusion exists when it says to abbreviate to aircraft type, make or model. That spawns discussion of using "light sport", "experimental" and such but those are not types. If you look for FAA's list of type designators, you get the codes for, wait for it... make and model. ATC is instructed if you are trying to interpret what a rule means, look at the examples for clarification. Every one in both the AIM and .65 abbreviate to make or model. No light sport or experimental or such. Now you ARE required to identify yourself as an experimental, if such, but the example there is N23BD, experimental. Just once each freq is fine.

Another post stated they just make something up. In the FAA's infinite wisdom (yes, I drank the cool-aid) the new ERAM computer system in place in about half the centers and coming to the rest (if sequestration doesn't kill it) will not accept a non-ICAO designator. Now many SLSA and even kit planes have an ICAO ID (the manufacturer has to apply for it), even my little Rans S-12 is an SL12/X (Oh, by the way, that /X and other equipment suffixes are not ICAO and will be going away in the next few years, thats one of my jobs, to design it's replacement). So find the ID and use that. It may not prevent the controller from being confused, but at least you did everything by the book. And the pilot that flies at CMA, they cannot MAKE you call yourself something. But I can understand you don't want to antagonize the person that sets your landing sequence. As we say, ATC has a perfect record... we haven't left one up yet!

Sorry to beat a dead horse.

Jason
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drseti
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by drseti »

Thanks, Jason, for giving us the controller's perspective. I think we all understand that, when talking to ATC, we need to identify ourselves by type and registration number. I still have a problem with ICAO designations being recognized and accepted. My primary trainer, for example, is an Echo Victor Sierra Sierra. My students try to use this when filing flight plans with FSS, and the LockMart employees consistently ask "what's that?" When they respond "Evektor SportStar," they're usually asked, "Is that an experimental?" When they say, no, it's a Special Light Sport, the FSS briefers generally say "I don't have that listed. I'm just going to put you in the system as an experimental." So, we still need to educate FSS (and, I would guess, ARTCC, Approach/Departure, and Tower personnel) about the ICAO codes.

Now, my greatest concern is about operation in the non-tower environment. In the traffic pattern, "Echo Victor Sierra Sierra" means nothing to other pilots on frequency. And "November Six Six Alpha Victor" conveys no useful information whatever, just clutters up a busy Unicom frequency with nine meaningless syllables. So, outside of ATC jurisdiction, I urge students not to identify by callsign or ICAO designation or make and model.

So, what kind of information is useful to other pilots in the non-towered airport environment? When I'm looking for another plane in the pattern, what I want to know is: large or small? Fast or slow? Maybe high wing vs. low wing, and perhaps color would be useful. "Blue light sport" or "small low-wing" are useful. Here at Cub Haven, "yellow Cub" is both useful and ubiquitous. But, unless frequently flown in the local environment and when talking to someone who knows a SportStar from a PiperSport from a Rans from a Van's, I'm not sure make and model are worth the syllables in an already congested electromagnetic spectrum.

So, Jason, how would you choose to identify at our little grass strip?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
artp
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by artp »

I fly in the SFRA (Washington DC area) and I just say "light sport 535TA" and everybody seems happy with that. Occassionally I am asked for the type and I respond "SIRA" (that is the official FAA designation for flight plans). There is very little sense in saying I am a Sierra (can be confused with a jet by the same name) and Tecnam or P2002 are equally worthless.
Flim63
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Re: Your Callsign--How do you announce yourself?

Post by Flim63 »

drseti wrote:So, Jason, how would you choose to identify at our little grass strip?
I think the best lesson I got about pilot comms was flying into Santa Paula (SZP). It's a sleepy little airport north of LA that has a TON of restored Howards and Gypsy Moths and their monthly open house is madhouse in the pattern and thats when we did my dual cross country. Everyone did "blue and yellow high wing" or such (thats how I announced my Rans). It was descriptive and you knew what to look for. I know at air show towers like Copperstate (which I've flown) and Oshkosh (which I have not) they use that due to the large number of aircraft and the landing rates, but in normal flights, I'd leave that as an aside rather than my check-in. But CTAF, use what will help other pilots.
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