X-Air for training?

[eidolon45]

Has anyone explored the practicality of using the X-Air standard for training? This aircraft seems to be configured and priced along the lines of the venerable Piper J3 - relatively simple, easy to handle, inexpensive, simple to repair, not too fast (at least the 85 HP model). Sort of American made (ok, I know it is fabricated in India, but who makes an AMERICAN LSA?) It does have the advantage (over the J3) of having a tricycle LG!

[drseti]

It does have the advantage (over the J3) of having a tricycle LG!

Or the disadvantage, depending upon your personal biases.

[drseti]

Has anyone explored the practicality of using the X-Air standard for training?

Unfortunately, these are (I believe) only available as kit-built aircraft. That makes them E-LSAs, and under current rules, only S-LSAs can be used in commercial service (which includes flight instruction for hire).

Does look like a great airplane, though!

[zaitcev]

But their website says: "The X-Air H model was the basis for the US built X-Air LS which earned SLSA status in Summer 2008." Is that a lie? I am disappointed if so.

[drseti]

I just went to their website, and apparently you're right. I stand corrected; didn't realize there was an S-LSA version. Looks good!

[zaitcev]

I learned about that airplane from the guy who was posting videos of flying in Utah, like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPXPbQiRwTM
I thought he had S-LSA, not E-LSA. Glad that it probably is the case, because the price is enticing. That fluttering plastic windshield looks rather striking though.

[drseti]

who makes an AMERICAN LSA?

I think that would be RANS.

[Hambone]

That fluttering plastic windshield looks rather striking though.

That IS a bit disconcerting...

What a spectacular place to fly, though!

[Cub flyer]

The X air standard used to be the ultralight looking version with high mounted engine. X air F was same with flaps. H or Hanuman is totally different and currently sold in a SLSA version.

I built one starting April 06 and first flight was July 1. I became a dealer for a short while and was involved with the development of the float version. Finished another airplane for a customer who had bought it from the west coast. Both flew within a few months of each other.

Proceed with caution!

I have no experience with the SLSA version but my dealing with the importer Bill Magrini, Joel the designer at X air and Rand Kar were not good.

The airplane had serious problems and engineering oversights. I have pages of correspondence with various people as I tried to fix my airplane to something that would be workable for training. We gave up on the float version after finding out the specs Bill had provided were flat out lies and it was not strong enough for the advertised gross weight.

I even had the designer admit he could not get permission to fly often in india and they make changes to the kit. He waited for builder feedback to see how they worked.

The later SLSA version appears to have corrected many things based on X air being forced into it to pass the British section S requirements.

I would strongly recommend flying one before purchasing. DO NOT use the original cast X air wheels but make sure you have some kind of aftermarket wheel with hydraulic brakes. My airplane was destroyed due to nosewheel casting failure after I sold it.

When you fly the airplane watch the wings. Pay close attention to the outer wing rib airfoil. Mine would bend up inside the wing making a pronounced undercamber.

DO NOT attempt to install Puddle Jumper floats unless they have changed the molds to give more area ahead of the step. The 15 ft floats do not have the area needed forward of the step to perform well on the Xair H.

If installed use the 912. The Jabiru did not have enough thrust.

DO NOT install a WARP DRIVE propeller. The helical twist of the blades is not enough and there is no pitch setting where the whole blade is working

I had a terrible time with the Stratomaster instrument panel. DO NOT install one. The thing went black after about 10 flights. I was months waiting for a replacement that shipped to south africa or somewhere. Finally I called one day and they said "who are you" I eventually got a replacement unit. My original never showed up again. The replacement had bugs I could never totally fix.

Look closely at the fuel tanks. They should have changed by now but the ethanol would dissolve the tank I had.

Add a carb heater if not installed. I installed the X air ireland electric unit.

The window flex is not a big deal. I installed some rigid foam standoffs to the vertical tubes and they kept it from collapsing.

I did change to install my door hinges to aluminum plates. The original was screwed through the windshield lexan.

I have a door latch design that works very well and is a big improvement over the factory bungee setup.

My landing gear fittings wore with less than 100 hours operation

The nose gear was a very weak point. We built a new one out of 4130 tubing slightly longer to change the angle of attack on the ground. Nose gear steering was very sensitive and we changed the pushrod position to fix. Elevator travel was well in excess of what was needed to stall the airplane so that was changed with addition of a bungee trimmer for slow speed similar to a vagabond.

The covering was dacron with Stits clear coat on mine. I don't have experience with the laminated covering currently used. I did paint all my steel fittings before assembly for corrosion resistance.

The fiberglass gel coat cracked and peeled off very quickly. Hopefully now there is a better process

Wing structure was too flexible. The ailerons would bend the wings opposite of the desired direction in flight.

Stall characteristics were different between identical airplanes.

Stay away from the early serial number AB airplanes. There is an upgrade to the wing strut attach fittings on the fuselage that should be done. Also look for steel rivets on the jury struts and steel or stainless plates on the fuselage just aft of the doors.

Pronounced rudder float in either direction and too much friction in the nose gear design for good yaw stability. The two airplanes I had here were different serial number ranges. One had the bungee nose gear and my yellow airplane had the spring nose gear. There should be an improvement now.

The cable tension should be tight on the tail brace wires. The instructions were pretty vague and when Rand Kar was selling airplanes I have letters and bulletins from Joel as he visited airplanes built in the field and was shocked about assembly errors in certain areas. X air did have some bulletins out.

Flown to the correct specs the airplane was strong enough. Compared to some ultralight designs it flew fine. It is all what you were used to but I could not get to the point where I could use it for students without major changes.

The old importers were making up specs and limitations at the time with no engineering. I purchased the airplane with a set of goals based on their numbers. Bill M also sold me an engine which he knew had multiple prop strikes. Just a mess from start to finish.

Here are some photos

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd26 ... G_0715.jpg

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd26 ... flot02.jpg

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd26 ... 0_2964.jpg

Videos are on this link

http://www.youtube.com/user/cub76n#p/c/1AFCAEE51335E841

I tested and tested for over a year. We had ventral fins under the tail, different props, baffles, wing rigging, BRS chute installation, To VNE, doors, fuel system changes, landing gear changes, float rigging, position, retraction setups, etc. and finally decided unless I redesigned the whole airplane it would never work for me.

There have been a lot of changes in the company and the SLSA version so hopefully they have their act together. I think they are on the right track because the new performance specs appear accurate. The airplane has also been beefed up for the 1320 gross.

I would offer to the SLSA builders all the data I have and patterns to use. I will never own one again.

It is the cheapest conventional airplane which is a definite lure for a starting LSA flight school. Best I can say is go fly one yourself and carefully do your homework. If the problems are fixed it would be a great airplane for the job.

[eidolon45]

Good GRIEF! Sounds like the mother of all kit builder's nightmares. This is the first one I have heard of where you have to do your own engineering as you build. I guess this one is not likely to make it into the top 5 LSA trainers - unless they get some really significant material and quality control issues resolved.

[rsteele]

who makes an AMERICAN LSA?

I think that would be RANS.

I have a friend who just completed a S7 kit. (same as S7LS S-LSA) it looks very sweet.

I think there's also Legend Cub, probably much more expensive.

The AMD 750 looks like it would do the job too. It's a really popular kit plane, but the S-LSA version comes with an O-200 which lowers the useful load about 50 or 60 lbs compared to the Rotax. AMD was recently sold, although the web site is still up. I don't remember who the new owners are.

The Indus Thorpedo has, alas, moved to China.

[Cub flyer]

I need to point out I built my airplane in 2006. We were the first to install floats.

Hopefully they have their act together now. I have not had any contact with the company or current importers to fly or see the SLSA airplane.

It was a great idea. A very complete kit you can build with minimum tools and experience in a relatively short time. I built mine in about 3 months.

I was looking for a quick build equal to the Vagabond but with electric start and tricycle gear. I'm still looking.

I would like to fly the Rans S-6 to see how it compares to the X. The Rans has very different structure and design.

The Skyranger is also very different internally but I did not like the design ideas. The X looked like a more rugged airplane when I was shopping around.

Rans has a welded steel tube cockpit area. I like that best.

[Jack Tyler]

It is interesting to reflect on how much LSA product is American made these days. I think everyone here will remember the 'Buy American' car & truck campaign of the 90's. While the public debate unfolded, American car mfgrs. were busy subbing out the manufacture of sub-assemblies, engines, frames and so forth...until finally it became generally understood that there were only blurred definitions of 'Built in the USA'.

This appears to be somewhat the case for LSA's today. There are offshore mfgrs. doing the design and sub-assembly work who ship parts containers to U.S. builders for assembly, sales and later service, much like a Honda plant operates in Ohio. Jabiru is a good example of this. The design,engineering work, materials, and quality of sub-assembly construction are all of Bundaberg, QLD origin. But the assembly labor, overall quality of construction and the QA system in operation is all American, located outside Nashville.

For those interested in or preferential for an "American made" LSA product, you might find the breakout done at bydanjohnson.com to be of interest. There is a (to me, sensible) distinction made between a/c that originate in the USA (implying that the design & engineering is American, as well as construction), those only being assembled in the USA (such as the Jabiru) and those being imported by distributors, where the a/c's design, engineering work-up & construction is done overseas.

By my count, there are (as of the last update of the matrix) 36 FAA-recognized S-LSA's which are designed & built in the USA, out of a total FAA-accepted population of 115. There are an additional 13 S-LSA's which are assembled in the USAbut foreign sourced , for a total of 49 S-LSA models being built in the U.S.

(You'll find the matrix at: www.bydanjohnson.com/index.cfm?b=7 It strikes me as one of the few objective & relatively current info resources provided on that website).


Looking at the data can offer a lot of food for thought. As one example, those 115 S-LSA products were competing in 2010 for only 202 S-LSA sales (according to the market data you can find at http://www.bydanjohnson.com/index.cfm?%20b=1&m=5 using the Dec 2009 & Dec 2010 summaries). Some models are currently being built very sparingly - e.g. I notice Jabiru only recorded 2 a/c sales in all of 2010. Rans sold no S-LSA's that year (tho' hopefully, a number of kits). When you look at sales numbers like this, spread across so many models, terms like 'factory' and 'manufactured' don't really seem to apply except in a regulatory sense. Terms like 'hangar built, one at a time' seem more appropriate. This may sound appealing until you ponder how likely it's been for the more talented workers to remain employed at a shop building only a few of these small, simple a/c per year. The numbers also help one understand how the FAA found so many problems in their LSA mfgr. on-site surveys, including safety of flight problems, given the inevitable small staffing.

I just hope there aren't too many coffee stains on the one or two sets of plans from which some of these units are being constructed.

Jack

[drseti]

Terms like 'hangar built, one at a time' seem more appropriate.

Jack, bear in mind that US aircraft sales don't paint a complete picture. A number of the European manufacturers sell only a couple of planes a year in the US, but several dozens of exactly the same plane in Europe. So, they may actually be factory produced, just not popular (or affordable) in the US.

[Hambone]

Wow! Perhaps that's one less exhibit to spend time on at Sun n Fun.