Sport Pilot Talk

I'm undecided on the configuration. I like the simplicity, classic looks, and increased performance of the taildragger A220.

However, as I'm intending on setting up an LSA training operation, I fear the inevitable student ground loop, as well as the increased insurance premiums.

Groundloops aren't necessarily inevitable. High insurance premiums are.

As far as I know, it is possible to ground-loop a tricycle gear plane: just give it some nose-up and rudder. Also, it is quite easy to break off the nosewheel in most LSAs by wheelbarrowing it in. I urge caution... Students will find a way to ruin your day even if you reject the tailwheel airplane. I was a student just recently too, and spun a Cherokee because I was reading too much about the importance of rudder control and experimented with it while in slow flight. My instructor recovered it, but I'm sure he was surprised.

zaitcev wrote:As far as I know, it is possible to ground-loop a tricycle gear plane

Pete's right; I've done it. (Well, actually, a student of mine did it, in a Cherokee 140, about 30 years ago. But, since I was CFI on board, and failed to prevent it, I get the credit...)

Gentlemen, I forgot to ask the uber-important question: is it possible to keep Aerotrek outside in the sun? How long is the fabric going to last if you try? And finally, is it possible to detect the UV damage with some non-destructive test (for example, a color standard) before it gets ripped off one day? I know that they used to keep Cubs outside in the 1940s, but the fabric and paints were different.

Bob,

I took a look at Seth's Eurofox last month. Saw you did some maintenance. I think he has it priced too high. He's trying to sell it for approximately the same price it sold for new in '06. Nice looking plane.

Todd

NismoRR wrote:Bob,

I took a look at Seth's Eurofox last month. Saw you did some maintenance. I think he has it priced too high. He's trying to sell it for approximately the same price it sold for new in '06.

Mine is an '07 model, and was basically equipped the same as his. I paid about $66K for mine, so I'm guessing the '06 price for that same plane was around $63-64K. The same plane with '11 prices is closer to $78K. So I'm not sure the asking price for the '06 was out of line at all. I believe he was throwing in a $1200 PCAS with it, and a set of headsets, which were worth about $600ish. As I recall, the plane only has 300-400 hours on it. His plane is currently being offered for $56K.

Airplanes are a funny market. They don't always depreciate as quickly as something like an automobile. And the SLSA market is pretty new, so there isn't a lot of history to base used prices on. I know his asking price was pretty much right in line with a few other '06 and '07 models that had popped up on the market. Now, with the economy sucking the way it does, that surely will have an effect on market value.

First off, how do you like that plane Bob?

Here's the thing about plane pricing from a new sport pilot that has no expertise in the field. LOL I am a finance guy though, so I don't consider myself totally ignorant to what's going on with the plane market. I've also been talking to as many plane owners as possible. Generally, if you look at just about any 5 year old plane on Barnstormers, Controller, trade a plane, (LSA's, C172's, Am Champ Scout'/Super Decathlon, etc)listing prices are usually AT LEAST 25% less than what the plane sold for 5 years previous. Some times it's as high as 33% sometimes less, but 25% seems to be a decent average. Add in the fact that, as you mention, the economy SUCKS, the worst we've ever seen, then what are fair prices now? I say at least 25% less then the sale price 5 years ago on a new plane. Would make Seth's plane ~45K. Fair price. There are several low time 2006 Remos and Flight Design models listed in the $70's now. That's what I'm paying attention too. Shoot, I'd do what you did, buy a NEW plane. If I loved the Aerotrek, 78K I could possibly do. But then I think, and constantly read and hear how it's a buyers market out there that I would be stupid to buy something new. Unless, lol, I wanted the plane I trained in, the SkyCatcher. And I'll say, for ~120K with dual G300, it's not a terrible alternative.

All this said, I'm trying to be somewhat smart and am thinking that a three person partnership is the way to go for me right now. If I could have gotten what I'd consider a fair deal on Seth's plane, I could have done that alone pretty comfortably. Still looking and trying to be patient, not my strongest quality!

NismoRR wrote:First off, how do you like that plane Bob?

Love it. I have nothing bad to say about it at all. I purchased mine new, mainly because there weren't any (many) used SLSAs on the market at that time, and I really didn't want to spend $100K+ on a plane.

RE: Pricing... yes, I understand what you're saying. I know nothing about financial stuff or what planes should be priced at. But I do understand you trying to come up with a ballpark figure. Trends are about all you can look at I guess. There isn't a lot of history for these SLSAs, since they're so new, and people are just now starting to sell their used ones. I suppose its just like real estate. The tax people have one idea of what your house is worth, appraisers say something else, the seller has yet another idea, and the bottom line still ends up being whatever the buyer feels comfortable paying. I agree, its a great time for buyers!

Now, the idea of a partnership is a whole other topic that could be a very long thread. Personally, I wouldn't want one, but a person has to do what a person has to do.

"I suppose its just like real estate. The tax people have one idea of what your house is worth, appraisers say something else, the seller has yet another idea, and the bottom line still ends up being whatever the buyer feels comfortable paying."

Exactly...and to continue the point, sellers vary in their 'need' to sell, buyers vary in their willingness to consider purchasing outside their local or regional markets (and so diminish the pool of available planes and the potential for competitive pricing), and the 'supply vs. demand' arena itself is in a constant state of flux (some sellers give up; some buyers give up; new buyers & sellers appear). Averages are useful in helping a buyer (or seller) to consider what the market may view as a fair (aka: average) price. But buyers usually want to 'get a deal' while owners often think their a/c is in some fashion special and so better than average. Like unemployment stats, averages can mean little at the individual level.

Hambone wrote:The A220/240 seems to fulfill my requirements for an LSA: relatively low cost, simple, high wing for good visibility, decent cruise speed, folding wings, factory-built certification for instruction and hiring, classic lines and, like all real air machines, sticks instead of steering wheels!

Any experience with these? The Aerotrek website is very professional and most impressive, although this alone doesn't necessarily make for a great product. I like the fact that the company has been around for a while with a tried and tested design.

I'm looking forward to climbing all over one (and many other LSAs) at Sun n Fun next month!

I am considering the A240 as a first plane and am wondering if an autopilot can be installed on this plane, say using the D100?

jbradsh1 wrote:am wondering if an autopilot can be installed on this plane, say using the D100?

That depends upon whether you buy a factory-built (S-LSA) model or build from kit (and register as E-LSA or E-AB). In the case of an E-AB, you can put in anything you want, at the time of construction, as long as (a) you meet the 51% rule, and (b) you don't take the performance specs out of the LSA limitations. If you register a homebuilt as an E-LSA, you must follow the kit manufacturer's instructions and equipment list exactly, although after you get your airworthiness certificate, you can modify to your heart's content (again, as long as you don't take the performance specs out of the LSA limitations). If you buy an S-LSA, the only way you can legally add anything is with a Letter of Authorization from the manufacturer. So, if you're going this route and contemplating adding an autopilot (or anything else), best contact the factory first, to make sure they'll support you with the desired LOAs.

drseti wrote:

jbradsh1 wrote:am wondering if an autopilot can be installed on this plane, say using the D100?

That depends upon whether you buy a factory-built (S-LSA) model or build from kit (and register as E-LSA or E-AB). In the case of an E-AB, you can put in anything you want, at the time of construction, as long as (a) you meet the 51% rule, and (b) you don't take the performance specs out of the LSA limitations. If you register a homebuilt as an E-LSA, you must follow the kit manufacturer's instructions and equipment list exactly, although after you get your airworthiness certificate, you can modify to your heart's content (again, as long as you don't take the performance specs out of the LSA limitations). If you buy an S-LSA, the only way you can legally add anything is with a Letter of Authorization from the manufacturer. So, if you're going this route and contemplating adding an autopilot (or anything else), best contact the factory first, to make sure they'll support you with the desired LOAs.

Thanks for your reply. Factory new for me (hard to find a good used Eurofox or Aerotrek).

I think we already corrected this in another thread, but Paul's answer needs to be amended in one area:

"If you buy an S-LSA, the only way you can legally add anything is with a Letter of Authorization..."

One option any purchaser of any S-LSA has, whether buying new or used, is to recertify the a/c as an E-LSA. E-LSA classification is not exclusive to kit builders. So in your case, you could discuss the LOA option for an autopilot with the factory before purchase and perhaps meet your need that way. Or...if you chose and if you were accepting of what impact (if any) such a change might have on the a/c's resale value, you could purchase an Aerotrek 240 and recertify it as an E-LSA, which then allows you to modify the a/c as you wish (subject to remaining within LSA ASTM standards) and eliminates the need for any future LOA requests as well (tho' not prudence for what changes you make to the a/c).