Aerotrek A220/240... thoughts?

[CTLSi]

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[Wm.Ince]

I can tell you from my limited experience with Rob Rollison that the "one-armed paper hanger" is an understatement. He is a very very intense individual that can get on a persons nerves pretty easily, but seems to take good care of his customers.
After receiving the planes from the manufacturer in a shipping container, he does the avionics installations and tends to all other details. He then test flies the plane to be sure it's airworthy and then flies with the new owner to get them acquainted with its "kite-like" characteristics (it's a very light airplane).
I'm not sure about now, but he used to operate out of a rather small hangar adjacent to a little grass strip in Indiana and seemed to be the poster child for a "low overhead" operation.
I think he only gets a new plane about every six months, but he seems to be constantly busy taking care of his customers.

Just my opinion from limited experience.

With my limited experience with him, that's the impression I got also.
I seriously considered the Aerotrek. Like I said before though, it is a very small airplane. And you are correct, very light.

[zaitcev]

I think he only gets a new plane about every six months, but he seems to be constantly busy taking care of his customers.

I don't think a plane per 6 months computes, according to FAA registration data. He was selling 10 or 12 airplanes a year for quite a while now - at least since 2010. That means one airplane about each month or two.

He always undercuts Kitfox on price by about 1/10th, e.g. $89k for A-220 vs $99k for KitFox.

[Hambone]

So, apart from $10K, what are the fundamental differences between the A220/240 and the ready-to-fly Kitfox?

[comperini]

I think he only gets a new plane about every six months, but he seems to be constantly busy taking care of his customers.

When I bought mine, I was told that the company only produced about 4 planes per month. Two per month went to the USA. The 6 months may be his backlog of pre-ordered planes, so if you buy one, its possible you'd have to wait before it's delivered.

[Merlinspop]

So, apart from $10K, what are the fundamental differences between the A220/240 and the ready-to-fly Kitfox?

They have common ancestry but have evolved separately the last several years. They're close, but not identical. Below is taken from the two company's websites. Someone (maybe AOPA) had an article about the Kitfox that discussed the differences.

Aerotrek
wingspan 29'11.3", wing area 122.53 sq ft
aircraft length 18'6.5"
aircraft height 7'4.5"
cockpit width 44.1" (4.6" wider than Cessna 172)
dimensions with wings folded: 7'10.5" max width, 70" height, 21'6" length, 7'6.5" maingear width
glide ratio 10:1 at 70 mph
cruise speed 120+ mph (max. cruise speed 132 mph)
Vne 143 mph
flaps-down stall speed 40 mph
climb rate 1100 fpm
take-off roll (at gross weight) 260'
empty weight 655 lbs. (with typical options installed)
maximum gross weight 1235 lbs.
useful load 580 lbs.
fuel capacity 22.5 gallons
range 600+ miles -- 5.7+ hours endurance at good cruise speed

------------------------

Kitfox S7 LSA

Wing Span 32 ft
Wing Area 132 ft²
Cabin Width 43”
Length 19’-8”
Wings Folded Length 22’-7”
Wings Folded Width 8’-0”
Height 5’8” Tail Wheel
Height 8’-0” Tri-Gear
Fuel Capacity 27 Gallons Standard
Seats 2 - Side by Side
Baggage Capacity 150 lbs
Flight Load Limits +3.8g / -1.52 Sustained
(+150% Safety Factor) Ultimate loads +5.7g / -3.8g

Empty Weight 750 lbs
Useful Load 800 lbs
Cargo Area 9 ft³
Gross Weight
1320 on Gear
1430 on Floats
1550 optional gear (if built as an E-AB kit)

Performance
Takeoff Ground Roll 290 ft
Landing Ground Roll 270 ft
Rate of Climb 1000 fpm
Vne 140 mph
Top Speed 125 mph
Cruise 120 mph
Stall Vso 41 mph
Endurance 5.4 hours
Range @ 4.8 gph = 612 miles
(with VFR Reserve)
Service Ceiling 16000 MSL

[Hambone]

Merlinspop - thank you for that very comprehensive comparison!

I found the useful AOPA reviews: http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All- ... oot-Kitfox and http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All- ... l-featured

The latest plan is to live with the airplane for a year or so while we RV around the USA, then decide whether or not to offer flight instruction. I'm leaning toward the Kitfox. Although it is more expensive, it seems more robust, and I like the "Made in the USA" aspect, too. There doesn't seem to be much difference between the two, though.

After seeing the AOPA Kitfox article, I'm intrigued by the taildragger/bush-tire configuration, and like the idea of frequenting rugged airstrips and camping. I wonder if this configuration would limit my potential students seeking their Sport Pilot license?

Any comments appreciated!

[Merlinspop]

Have you also looked at the Rans S20 or Just Highlander?

Purely speculative, but it wouldn't surprise me if the students seeking out this genre of aircraft have a higher likihood of finishing up the license.

[CTLSi]

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[Jack Tyler]

Good friend Wes just finished hauling his Just Highlander all around the USA (FL - MT - MI - FL). A few hours to break it out and be ready to fly, about half a day to get it settled back in and - very important - ready to take the punishing motion of a long haul on state highways. And one lesson Wes has learned over and over is that, even with a big diesel powered HD truck, this combination rig sees a lot of wear and can be quite costly (fuel, tires and 'stuff that breaks').

Ham, know what had the longest lines I saw, across multiple days, at the 2014 Sport Aviation Expo...and by quite a margin? It was a fellow who's exhibited there the last 6 years, if memory serves, who wasn't selling a thing. Well, except an idea. His exhibit included his Roadtrek Class B (purchased used), a trailer long enough for his LSA (plane inside), lots of foam board panels showing pics that illustrated the joy he & his wife have had the past decade driving (and flying) all over the USA, and a *very* specific cost breakdown in two categories: How much setting up the entire rig cost including plane (just shy of $100K if memory serves, but he bought a partially completed E-AB LSA and finished it himself) and how much they spend each year (and for what) while living what they consider their dream. So what he was selling falls into the same category as the brokers at the sailboat shows who exhibit photos of their boats anchored off Bora Bora or the RV dealers showing their products parked near Half Dome. Except in his case, he really was a Johnny Appleseed, believing the wonderful life they were living was probably one others would want to enjoy too. The long lines - which he described to me as typical each year - sure indicated folks wanted to hear the sizzle and consider buying the steak. (And what a nice guy, too). So for that part of the plan, go for it!

Having said that, my two cents/best guess is that you will be best served if you consider the cost (in time, effort, $$) of your rig as almost exclusively serving personal recreational purposes, with occasional flight training being a possibility but not a significant source of income. When you're back stateside, talk with some independent instructors and find out how long it's taken them to build a reputation and attract the mix of students and other customers (BFR, insurance mandated hours, transition training). Ask them how they would view a 'here today, but gone tomorrow' instructional business model. As suggested elsewhere, also talk to a few insurance brokers to learn what kind of cost penalty you will bear to collect occasional training income while paying a full premium, and fold that into the business plan's spreadsheet. Also consider the long training period for many folks because of family, work, finances and other interruptions. Will someone want to begin a program, knowing you and your rental a/c will be gone in six or perhaps three months? Will you want them to? And then there are the seasons: If you choose to follow the sun, that's going to dictate half year stays. If your goal is to remain in one place a year, the climatic choices are going to severely limit where your RV gets to take you. It's a wonderful concept - we too are travel vagabonds - but even so, my advice is to thrash out the detail, look around the corners, and insure that the 'RV travel' rewards and lifestyle are enough to justify hauling around a plane. And I sure do wish you well in acting on your basic plan, because I can tell you that flying into backcountry destinations for camping & hiking is about as good as aviation gets. (Be sure to visit theraf.org and enjoy the pics! What we do is make sure you have gobs of great recreational destinations to visit).

[Hambone]

Thanks for that analysis, Jack. As usual, thorough and useful. Lots of points to ponder.

Way back in college in Colorado, I dreamed of backwoods flying and camping. Seeing the RAF display at Sun n Fun a few years ago reminded me of that dream!

We will incur considerable cost and difficulty dragging a trailer and aircraft around behind an RV. This is supposed to be semi-retirement, so the plan is to have the aircraft available primarily for our personal use and, if conditions permit, occasional instruction. Your point is well-taken regarding student continuity, which will be difficult if we're moving around. I'm considering offering short, intensive courses with 3-4 students knocking out their licenses in 2-3 weeks. The plan is to advertise locations and dates online, then plan on spending the required times at those locations. I thought about liaising with vacation destinations, such as dude ranches or tennis resorts, with a view to offering the Sport Pilot license as another activity for the resort to offer. Running 4-6 of these classes a year should make the endeavor profitable while allowing us to roam, although I haven't done a detailed cost analysis to include insurance. My wife also plans on continuing her life coaching business via the internet, and in a few years time, I expect mobile broadband internet to be available nationwide to enable her to do this.

Current activity in this part of the world is keeping me pretty busy right now, so I again have put retirement on the back burner!

[CTLSi]

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[Jack Tyler]

Ham, I may have mentioned this during your earlier period of inquiry. I think one of the untapped sources of new students (and new aircraft owners) are these massive retirement villages, which are usually located in temperate climate areas with appealing recreational attractions. The typical Del Webb-like place is loaded with folks who have long Bucket Lists and the discretionary income to use them, and a slice of each population must surely have a buried itch for becoming a pilot. If I were trying to publicize my presence in some place like The Villages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Villages,_Florida) in central Florida, I'd arrange with a nearby strip mall's management firm to fold out the wings for a few days in the parking lot near the most popular grocery store, have a couple of those fluttery vertical flags and a couple of foam board signs touting the training program (all easily stowed, light weight and cheap) and with the primary objective of booking some discovery flights at the nearby airport the following week. And imagine if those poster boards showed pictures some nearby interesting destinations the folks could relate to, either taken from the air or with the plane as part of the scenery in the background.

In the case of the Villages, with close to 60,000 well-heeled residents these days, there surely would be a handful of folks who's heads would turn when hearing (and seeing) the pitch. And once you get plugged into that closed-community network...well, the possibilities could be endless.

[zaitcev]

If we're talking about folders in general, then here's a list
- Aerotrek: the leader, see above for the discussion
- Kitfox: 2nd best, 1st if you're "Made in U.S.A." guy
- Zlin Savage Classic - very Cub lookalike, but folding
- Remos GX - plastic-fantastic LSA, think of it like CTLS only folding
- Fk9 - underappreciated in U.S. for unknown reason, sold by Hansen (same guy who sells Sky Arrow)
- X-Air - I know at least 1 guy with it
- CGS Hawk - okay this is pushing it, folding requires 2 people and disconnecting controls
- Groppo Trail - the airplane is awesome, but you will be the pioner in U.S. market, discount for the risk
- Pipistrel - does not have folding wings, but wings are easily removable (inherited from Sinus)

[Hambone]

Jack - that is a fantastic idea, and one we had when we considered retiring at a Del Webb location.

Zaitcev - thank you for that comprehensive list!