Aerotrek A220/240... thoughts?

zdc · Post by **zdc** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:14 pm

Jack Tyler wrote:It's an excellent point 3Dreaming makes about parts availability. This is why, when Piper bailed out on their master distributor agreement for the Sport Cruiser, the existing regional distributors made a large parts order from the factory part of their first follow-up announcement. This is also one reason why a small 1 plane/month shop is relevant. They are very unlikely to have a large inventory of metal parts, fiberglass fairings and such. For comparison's sake, take the video tour of the RV factory in Oregon and note the massive inventory of parts. (You can see it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qt7m4XxJwg ). Delivering one of their complete kits & plans sets requires ~2 months lead time...but getting a skin & rib after a bird strike is a 'next day' affair).

"No love for Continental huh?"
It isn't the engine but rather the cost associated with maintaining it that makes a Rotax desirable for Ham's needs. After a 3-day Rotax seminar, along with a weekend LSA Repairman seminar, Ham can do his own annual inspections and all regular servicing of his engine. That becomes a significant cost savings over paying an A&P his/her hourly wage. Also, engine parts for the Rotax should be less costly (despite the burden of being priced in Euros and needing to be shipped from Europe) because they lack the cost of an FAA mandated parts approval process.

Anyone know what an A/P shop pays for liability insurance? If you rent an airplane you have an insurance policy for that. I would think you would need additional insurance to cover repair/servicing the acft. Don't forget the cost of the tools/equipment and the proper space to perform repairs.

3Dreaming · Post by **3Dreaming** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:04 pm

Jack Tyler wrote:"No love for Continental huh?"
It isn't the engine but rather the cost associated with maintaining it that makes a Rotax desirable for Ham's needs. After a 3-day Rotax seminar, along with a weekend LSA Repairman seminar, Ham can do his own annual inspections and all regular servicing of his engine. That becomes a significant cost savings over paying an A&P his/her hourly wage. Also, engine parts for the Rotax should be less costly (despite the burden of being priced in Euros and needing to be shipped from Europe) because they lack the cost of an FAA mandated parts approval process.

Jack, the rotax training is broke down into 2 day classes except for heavy maintenance which is 3 day. An owner would want to do the 2 day service class to learn more about their engine. Next would be the 2 day line maintenance class if they plan on maintaining their airplane. The weekend LSR classes wouldn't do him any good with an S-LSA. He would need the 120 hour training class to get what he would need to work on a S-LSA. Tom

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:39 pm

Jack Tyler wrote:After a 3-day Rotax seminar, along with a weekend LSA Repairman seminar, Ham can do his own annual inspections and all regular servicing of his engine.

Well, that's not exactly correct. To do condition inspections on an S-LSA (those used in commercial service require a condition inspection every 100 Hobbs hours, not just an annual), he would have to receive an LSMR-A rating (three weeks full-time training, 120 classroom hours at Rainbow Aviation) and additionally the Rotax service-level course (one weekend at CA Power Systems, Leading Edge Airfoils, Lockwood Aviation, or a couple of other possible schools). I just went through that exact training in October. Total cost (including airfare, hotel, car rental and meals) was around $7k -- a non-trivial expense, but it makes me a fully qualified LSA maintenance technician, able to do major and minor repairs (according to manufacturer's procedures and instructions), and alterations (with a Letter of Authority from the manufacturer) as well as both annual and 100 hour condition inspections.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:04 pm

zdc wrote:Don't forget the cost of the tools/equipment and the proper space to perform repairs.

Rotax provides a list of the specialized tools they require a shop to have in order to be listed as an approved Rotax Maintenance Centre. The price for all items adds up to around $10,000 (this is in addition to the standard hand tools that any aircraft maintenance facility is likely to already have). Don't forget to include this in your business planning, if you want to hang out your shingle to work on anyone's plane besides your own.

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:29 pm

Paul, I'm glad you caught my error as there is a truly significant difference between owning a S-LSA a/c and the E-LSA a/c I'm planning to own. But of course, that is immaterial to Ham if he's putting a plane into rental or training. Thanks for that reminder.

Jack

Hambone · Post by **Hambone** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:34 pm

Pros and cons to tube & rag construction over metal or composite? Factor for training and/or rental?

I suppose the relatively low price of the A240 over other similarly specced LSAs is down to the construction method.

comperini · Post by **comperini** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:11 pm

Hambone wrote:Pros and cons to tube & rag construction over metal or composite? Factor for training and/or rental?

Here's a start, after thinking about it for a few minutes:

Pros:

* Lightweight (possibly leaving more room for useful load)

* Easy and relatively cheap to repair (its a common method of construction, where something exotic like composites will be more of a job to fix)

* Easy/quicker to construct, making the cost of the plane generally lower

Cons:

* Don't lean against the plane with a screwdriver sticking out of your back pocket

* Since it's not rigid, it won't absorb crash impacts (which is why the frame its built on, needs to be strong).

* I suppose its possible that noise could be increased, since there isn't a lot of sound deadening in fabric

* It will eventually need to be replaced (how many years will that take, Cub owners? 20?). Of course, I suppose in that many years, even metal planes at the very least, need a new paint job. I'm not knowedgable about the longevity of composites.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:57 am

comperini wrote:I'm not knowledgeable about the longevity of composites.

Neither is anyone! They're too new for there to be any MTBF history, so it's anybody's guess.

Hambone · Post by **Hambone** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:34 am

Anyone towing one of these (or any other trailered folding-wing LSA, for that matter) behind an RV?

saintlfd · Post by **saintlfd** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:56 am

Hambone wrote:Anyone towing one of these (or any other trailered folding-wing LSA, for that matter) behind an RV?

Check out haveplanewilltravel.info Very entertaining and informative, at least for an aviation fan.

Hambone · Post by **Hambone** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:16 am

Nice link! Thanks for that.

I'm liking the idea of towing the trailer http://www.fly-aerotrek.com/photos/trai ... ort-3m.jpg with a 'toy hauler' http://www.rvclearinghouse.com/user_ima ... 168392.jpg I can fit two motorcycles in.

Mobile flying school, anyone?

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:37 pm

Ham:

"Anyone towing one of these (or any other trailered folding-wing LSA, for that matter) behind an RV?"

The idea can be much more appealing that the realities...altho' you'll find multiple LSA owners who buy/own/use a trailer for a blend of reasons. Let me give you an example:
-- plane is a Highlander, a 912-powered high-wing that essentially falls into the 'Cub' category. Tube frame & fabric, relatively light empty weight for a 1320# a/c, and with folding wings
-- vehicle is a beefy Ford with the factory Cummins diesel
-- trailer chosen was just big enough to accommodate the Highlander (which, as with the a/c in the pic you offered, is about as short a 1320# a/c as one will find)
-- the trailer needs to be modified (extra weight added) to insure floor runners control the rolling of the landing gear, restraints while trailer is in motion, ramp and winch (or block & tackle) added for rolling the a/c in/out, tools of course, and so on.

The all-up weight of the trailer requires the really big pick-up, which in turn burns a lot of diesel. The owner (good friend of ours) had hoped to keep the camper on his truck bed, thereby having both the ability to trailer the a/c to a new area and then camp there while touring the area by air. (There are a lot of campground airfields that make this a very appealing idea). But there's just too much weight involved for either the dualie pick-up's suspension or its engine to handle that load...so you would have to be looking at a really big (think more $$) RV to handle the load.

Builders will often buy a trailer because it can be a build site that can be secured at night. (Our buddy both builds and then paints in his...). Trailers are allowed to be parked on some airfields (but not others), thereby providing 'hangar' protection to the a/c. And a trailer can allow you to take a trailerable a/c back to the house/garage if it's easier to do the inspection or other work there vs. the airfield, e.g. perhaps where your air compressor, larger-than-hangar electrical supply, shop tools and such are located. So the idea appeals on many levels. But look at the numbers, as these trailers are expensive & heavy, a capable towing vehicle is expensive to buy and run, and it's a big rig to handle. Some of the LSA's at Sebring this year were there with their trailers, and they all looked similar to the one our friend has - big, expensive, and requiring a heavy vehicle.

BTW if you get a chance - in your way-too-short visit to SnF at month's end - please stop by the Navy SH-60B out on the display apron and look for a tall, lean 0-4 with my last name. Devin's bringing one of his helos down from Jax again this year and he'd be glad to hear from someone who's been over in the desert, given that's he's likely to do regular flights in/out of there on his next tour. And good luck on the LSA shopping. We can all see you're ready!

Hambone · Post by **Hambone** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:05 am

More great info, Jack! Thanks!

I'm still in the brainstorming mode, and your idea of setting up a Sport Pilot school as a semi-retirement venture in a fair-weather retirement location (perhaps Phoenix) sounds appealing. The ability to trailer the aircraft and travel to various locations for both instructional and personal vacationing purposes seems like a good idea, but as you state, perhaps the idea is more appealing than the realities!

I've rearranged my plans to allow for two full days at Sun n Fun. I'll be sure to look up Devin!

eidolon45 · Post by **eidolon45** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:53 am

Jack, your post on aircraft trailering caught my attention. I am relatively new to the general aviation scene, but have had quite a bit of experience with trailers - both hauling and building them. My son and I recently completed a 14 foot triple axle to haul a 5 ton dozer. I know something about towing and structural capacities.

I don't doubt your observations about all the heavy weight trailers you have seen used for aircraft hauling, but I am wondering if some of those owners weren't forced to buy something a lot heavier duty than they should have needed just to accommodate the length of the aircraft. As an example, A 28 foot trailer off the lot is most likely going to be set up with heavy axles, hitch and frame components suitable to haul a race car with tools and parts and weight that might top out at 7000# or more. A LSA, on the other hand, weighs in at maybe 850 max? Add 600 pounds for tools and accessories and you are still within the weight range of a family power boat - which generally can be hauled on a much lighter trailer with smaller towing vehicle. Of course adding a protective enclosure will increase weight, but shouldn't be that much.

The real point of my post: I am wondering if any company in the trailer industry is currently building trailers that would be better suited for the use we are discussing? Given the youthful age of our sport and the few planes with folding wings, I am thinking this may be a niche market no one has thought of yet. Most off-the-lot enclosed trailers I have seen are one-size-fits-all types with heavy steel structure designed to haul anything you can stuff in them. If I were to go for a plane with folding wings, I would certainly be looking at plans for building my own trailer tailored for the size and weight I would need. Maybe an aluminum frame with tandem standard axles 3500 # capacity each. In fact, I am going to start researching that today. Anyone on the forum have any thoughts or other insights on this subject?

Thanks for bringing up an interesting subject.

Hambone · Post by **Hambone** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:18 am

Looks like a potential business venture!

I'm speaking from ignorance here, but wouldn't a lightweight trailer cause more road vibration and shock loads to be transferred to the aircraft, which may be more prone to damage than a car/tractor/boat/toolbox/etc?

Sailplanes have been trailered for decades http://www.cobratrailer.com/html/leaflet.html Perhaps lightweight sailplane trailer construction technology could be used for folding-wing LSA trailers rather than generic heavy-duty trailers.