Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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WDD
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby WDD » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:40 pm

I just saw a video from this year's Sun n Fun asking the LSA manufacturers about the higher weight proposal. I was expecting them to all enthusiastically say "Yes", but didn't get that. They were hedging. IMHO, 1) if they did, their sales of existing LSA's might stall because they are implicating saying "don't buy now, wait until we have the new, bigger model". And would also implicitly say "for those who bought at 1320 pounds, too bad - now we have better planes, and the value of what you have just dropped". Perhaps. I did say I was speculating.

They were also concerned about the uncertainty of planes currently registered as non LSA - could they be retro registered as LSA? (Lightening, etc.)

One guy referred to the weight increase as good because it would accommodate the "average American pilot". Translation - yeah, we weigh more than the French".

IF the FAA - maybe someday - does increase to 2,600 lbs, and allows for 4 occupants, the market place will decide what size between 1320 and 2600 lbs, and 2 - 4 occupants an aircraft would be. The Ranger could be certified for a few hundred pounds more instantly according to the manufacturer, as also the Jaburi, Lightening, etc. The ease of development regulations of LSA combined with the freedom to create a plane with a more appealing capacity would IMHO be the ticket to really kick up the innovation and bring new planes to the market.

Planes that cost a quarter of a million and up (the new stripped down Piper, a new Cessna, etc.) really aren't going to jump start GA IMHO. There is a reason 50 year old Skyhawks are still around.

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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:24 pm

WDD wrote:They were also concerned about the uncertainty of planes currently registered as non LSA - could they be retro registered as LSA? (Lightening, etc.)



For the most part, I doubt they would need to be. Similar to how Champs and Ercoupes don’t need to be re-registered, as long as they meet the current - or revised - LSA definition.

The only thing they could not do is qualify for conversion to E-LSA. Without a MAJOR revision to the current regs.
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:31 pm

I'm not so sure anything would need to be re-registered. They didn't re-register any of the existing vintage standard certificated aircraft that meet the current LSA specifications. I envision they could say the new definition of LSA includes aircraft with a max gross weight of 1500 pounds and stall speed of 50 knots and max speed of 130 knots. So, any currently certified aircraft that fall within that definition would be considered LSA. Of course, each of those aircraft would still be limited to their own certificated limitations.

Again, just speculation.
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby c162pilot » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm

John Torode founder of Dynon and Vashon is an avid floatplane pilot and has publicly stated his intention to put the Ranger on floats. I spoke with the GM of Vashon at SnF and he indicated that Ranger is currently tested to 1,433 lbs in anticipation of adding floats. He also indicated that if the max gross weight of S-LSA's was increased by the FAA then Vashon would only raise the max gross weight of the Ranger to 1,433 lbs. While not the 1,653 lbs most would want a definite improvement.

I have yet to fly in a Ranger but I did take a short ride in the tricycle gear Rans S-21 at S&F. Very nice plane. I also sat in the Ranger and found it to be much more spacious than the S-21. Overall the Ranger is better value than the S-21 and is available now.

It appears that 12 Rangers have or will be delivered and the waiting time is now one year. Serial #3 is about 100 miles from where I live in the NE and I have been in contact with the owner and will be visiting with him in a week or two to see his plane and go for a ride with him. The owner traded down from a SR-22T to the Ranger. He also has a J-3 Cub with a O-200 and feels comfortable with the engine.

Lastly I sat in the Piper 100. I do not think there is any comparison that can be made between the Piper and Vason as they serve distinctly different markets.

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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby Warmi » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:07 pm

Well, both piper and the ranger are targeted at flight schools ... not sure what distinctly different markets are you talking about.

Imho S21 is much more versatile plane with choice of three modern engines , better payload , much better looks etc ... of course, some folks just won’t consider anything that is not their favorite 80 years old Lycoming/Continental technology and I guess, a plane like Ranger is a perfect match for them.
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby c162pilot » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:44 pm

Let me clarify. The Piper 100 is a 3 seat airplane designed exclusively for the flight school environment and will only be sold to flight schools. The third seat is in the middle and is for an observer or second student pilot. The Piper 100 is available as an IFR trainer with a Garmin GTX-375 and Garmin G3X Touch as well as a fuel injected 180 horsepower engine. To lower costs the Piper 100 has had the both the standard PA-28 Archer third row of windows removed and baggage compartment removed. Lastly the Piper 100 will not be available for another year or so.

While the Ranger is promoted as a training aircraft all but two have been sold to private individuals who are using them from whatever and one of the flying schools is next door to Vashon on Payne Field where the Ranger is assembled and flight tested.

The base Rangers is $99,700 and the Piper non-IFR is $256,000 and the IFR is $278,000.

In my work as an offering manager I would describe these two products as addressing different markets.

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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:41 am

Yes, Sport Pilot vs Private and beyond.
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby drseti » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:39 pm

TimTaylor wrote:Yes, Sport Pilot vs Private and beyond.


From a flight school perspective, not necessarily. An SLSA can be used to train for PPL, and if properly equipped for an Instrument rating, or (now) even for a CPL.
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:01 pm

Yes, we all know that. However, I would fly the Piper if I was going for a Private, Instrument, Commercial, etc. I would fly the Vashon if going for Sport.
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby Helen » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:31 pm

The Piper, unlike the Vashon, can carry two people and gas at the same time legally. Last I checked that was generally a requirement for flight training.
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby Cub flyer » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:17 pm

I grew up with Piper Colts in the flight school 108hp O-235 power and 1650 gross.
We also have had Cessna 150’s around in various years. O-200 and 1600 gross,
Cessna 152 1670 gross
Ercoupes at various weights and engines up to the O-200.

None were what I would call rocket ships at those weights.

Talk of Gross increase would need to have an acceptable increase in power if using legacy engines. Is there a big enough difference with the O-200D to make it? Could it ever fly a Vashon on floats?

I’ve often wondered why the Cessna 150 is so bad. The rate of climb at gross is dismal. But if you look at the airplane it’s fairly clean and well faired.

We have a PA-18 90 hp Continental with no flaps on the field. The Cub has 10 sq ft more wing than the 150. The 150 has the same airfoil as the Taylorcraft which is a floater so I don’t think it’s the airfoil.

It seems like the 150 airframe is much cleaner than the early Super Cub but there is no comparison to takeoff, climb and almost equal cruise.

If a 150 had some WingX tip extensions and Sportsman leading edge kit the wing area would then equal the cub. Would that fix it?

Cub has much longer struts, plus 2 more, Much dragger gear, bungees and cowling etc. Yes no nose gear. Even the old fastback 150’s won’t match up with the 90hp cub so it’s not the back window cutout in the fuselage.
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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:23 pm

Cub flyer wrote: The 150 has the same airfoil as the Taylorcraft which is a floater so I don’t think it’s the airfoil.


I have owned both, and the Cessna 150 does not have the same airfoil as a Taylorcraft. Look it up for your self. http://www.aerofiles.com/airfoils.html

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Re: Piper 100 vs Vashon Ranger

Postby Cub flyer » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:32 pm

Yep embarrassed here. You are correct.

With Cessna using symmetrical tips stock you would think the leading edge kits would make more difference than they do. Straight tail 150 here on the field with leading edge kit, aileron gap seals and fences. It stalls slower but the rate of climb has not improved much.

So next question is with all the engineering power Cessna had on staff why did they design the way they did and not something that would perform better. It was all easily available information at the time. They made thousands of 150’s and 152’s but no really big wing changes. The wing obviously works ok but It just always seemed lacking in rate of climb for how clean the rest of the design is, relatively compared to a draggy cub type.

What are we doing better today for a simple metal airplane. The Vashon wing appears RV thick but short span. The tip design is interesting but at higher weights would it all work out? Does it need a Tcraft style wing span to work on floats?
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