HOLY COW!!!

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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Nomore767
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Nomore767 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:09 pm

TimTaylor wrote:Howard, we're talking about the price of new airplanes, not used airplanes. Not many middle class people I know could afford your RV-12 when new.


Agreed. But....many in the middle class CAN afford to own and operate an RV-12 and even a Cub Crafters...even if they're used and in these cases..almost new. Just as the same folks pay the same or more for new or nearly new motor homes.
Some people don't buy brand new on principle because cars, planes and RVs have high initial depreciation. So they buy nearly new or maybe lightly used. The Sports Cubs I cited earlier are bargains at half the price of new in good shape with low hours.

This forum promotes and encourages sport flying so I think we can go the extra step and show how folks can becomes owners or renters for less than they think.
Eddie's Sky Arrow in the original post is pretty much the same as the one he owns except for maybe more sophisticted avionics which he may not even opt for.

RV-12 SLSA exactly like mine except one year older with only 65 hours on it for sale at $92k. Class C motor homes for sale 2017 models $96k to $70k

Which part of the middle class are we talking about? Low, middle or upper?

TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:44 pm

Howard, I agree with what you said, but we were discussing the high price of new LSA.
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FastEddieB
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby FastEddieB » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:57 pm

TimTaylor wrote:Howard, we're talking about the price of new airplanes, not used airplanes.


To be fair, in my original post I did at least obliquely mention the effect of high new plane prices on used planes, or at least mine.

So I think used plane prices can rightfully be pertinent to the conversation.
Fast Eddie B.
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TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:28 pm

Nomore767 wrote:CubCrafters? Who has that kind of money? $218,000 for a basic model modestly equipped. Nobody in the middle class.


Trade a Plane has 4 Cub Crafter Sport Cubs for sale one with 722 hours for $109k and three others with less than 500 hours each with one for $100k and two at around $145k.
Hickory NC has one for checkout and rental at around $110 hour. I know I flew it and did my last Flight Review in it and Brandon does a real great and fun job flying into some neat as well as challenging local grass strips.
Ok not chump change to buy but they are airplanes that can be operated as LSAs at reasonable prices especially versus new.
As I said earlier their prices are similar to the RV motor homes that many in the middle class seem able to buy, operate, and store, judging by the numbers on the interstates and the huge inventories at numerous dealers.

Middle class incomes ranging from $30k to $100k (42%) upper middle class from $100k to $350k (26%). Pew.

Again, just saying.[/quote]

FastEddie, I was responding to this post which called me to task for saying CubCrafters are too expensive. I believe most of the post were lamenting the price of new airplanes. These discussions are little more than a circle jerk. You can't respond to one post without someone correcting you because you said something that didn't agree with a post 10 or 12 post earlier. Why even bother to comment?
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:08 pm

Median income in this country is less than $60,000 per household. That means 1/2 make less, 1/2 make more. If you look at averages, the high income families make so much it distorts the averages. I don't know any middle income families making $350,000. I don't consider them "middle income." However, I have been retired 13 years, so maybe some people make a lot more than I remember.
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Merlinspop
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Merlinspop » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:40 am

Remember when American Legend came out with their 'bare bones' model (I can't remember the marketing name they gave it)? One door, round gauges, com, xpndr... that's about it. They made it as low priced as they could to try to attract the more modest purchaser (at least according to them). They sold exactly zero of that model. Granted the cub platform is the antithesis of "modern, sleek" aircraft, but they did try to make a new aircraft at as low a price point as they could get, and found no market for it at all.
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MrMorden
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby MrMorden » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:47 am

Merlinspop wrote:Remember when American Legend came out with their 'bare bones' model (I can't remember the marketing name they gave it)? One door, round gauges, com, xpndr... that's about it. They made it as low priced as they could to try to attract the more modest purchaser (at least according to them). They sold exactly zero of that model. Granted the cub platform is the antithesis of "modern, sleek" aircraft, but they did try to make a new aircraft at as low a price point as they could get, and found no market for it at all.


That mimics the experience at Flight Design as well. They had a "Club" version of the CTSW with basic round instruments and limited avionics, and they sold very few. Most opted for the dual glass panels, most expensive GPS, etc. My airplane was one of the Club aircraft, but even it received an avionics upgrade to a Dynon D-100, Garmin 496, and Garmin com and transponder installed by the regional distributor before being sold here in the states.

It seems that most buyers figure if they are into an airplane for six figures, they might as well get all the bells and whistles -- "In for a penny, in for a pound".
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:12 am

I think that means there are two America's, so to speak. There are those who have plenty of money and want what they want and can afford it. Then, there are those who don't have a lot of discretionary income and, if they can afford to fly at all, either rent or buy used.

It seems to me, there should be a segment of the population that is somewhere between that could afford, and would want a modern air frame, low cost engine, and low cost avionics so they could buy new instead of used. I would be happy with a SkyCatcher air frame, Rotax 100 HP carbureted engine, basic round gauges, one comm radio, transponder, all for $70,000.
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drseti
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:31 pm

Tim, if the SkyCatcher had been developed with that 100 hp carbureted Rotax engine instead of the 60 pound heavier Continental O200, Cessna might still be in the LSA business. It would never have been a $70k aircraft, however.
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HAPPYDAN
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby HAPPYDAN » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:52 pm

" I would be happy with a SkyCatcher air frame, Rotax 100 HP carbureted engine, basic round gauges, one comm radio, transponder, all for $70,000."
Have you checked out the Merlin PSA? It's a builder-assist kit, located in Lakeland FL. It was quite a hit at Air Venture this year. Right now, I would be happy just to finally obtain an SPL certification. But, after 3 years of trying, around $20K spent, 95 hours, 2 soloes, hundreds of landings without incident, still no luck. Finally, wife says - and rightly so - "Enough is enough; stop chasing butterflies. They don't want a dangerous old man flying a little airplane." Ouch :( Still, the beat goes on . . . . . . just finished Sporty's online PPL course and got the Knowledge Test endorsement. And the beat goes on . . . .

TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:19 pm

She's right. However, there's nothing wrong with a safe old man flying little airplanes. Are you retired or still working? If retired and you have some free time, I bet you could find a place where you could go and stay a couple weeks and finish up.
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HAPPYDAN
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby HAPPYDAN » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:01 pm

TimTaylor wrote:She's right. However, there's nothing wrong with a safe old man flying little airplanes. Are you retired or still working? If retired and you have some free time, I bet you could find a place where you could go and stay a couple weeks and finish up.


Thanks, and yeah, I tried that too. It was called EAA Sport Pilot Academy. 3 weeks of crash and dash out of KOSH, with a couple of interesting events thrown in. A very worthwhile experience, learned a lot about pushing the limits of the Skycatcher (a surprisingly capable performer in experienced hands), so it wasn't a total bust. Got a bunch of hours and a bunch of landings, but no endorsements. So it would be back to square one, again.

TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:08 pm

Never mind...
Last edited by TimTaylor on Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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3Dreaming
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:15 pm

TimTaylor wrote:Not back to square one. All of your previous experience and hours are a valuable learning experience. My vision is you would go somewhere, such as to Paul's flight school and let him, or whoever, get you finished up. I'm not envisioning a high pressure, fly 5 hours a day type environment. I'm envisioning a dedicated, experienced instructor who you could fly with a couple hours per day and iron out any deficiencies and get you ready and comfortable for your check ride. Then, when ready, he would sign you off and send you for your ride. On the other hand, if flying is not your wheel house he would not hesitate to tell you to take up golf or fishing. I wish I was current. I'll bet I could get your ready. I'll bet Fast Eddie or 3Dreaming could also.


I know we have our differences, so I mean this in the most sincerest way possible. Thank you for the vote of confidence.

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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:41 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Not back to square one. All of your previous experience and hours are a valuable learning experience. My vision is you would go somewhere, such as to Paul's flight school and let him, or whoever, get you finished up. I'm not envisioning a high pressure, fly 5 hours a day type environment. I'm envisioning a dedicated, experienced instructor who you could fly with a couple hours per day and iron out any deficiencies and get you ready and comfortable for your check ride. Then, when ready, he would sign you off and send you for your ride. On the other hand, if flying is not your wheel house he would not hesitate to tell you to take up golf or fishing. I wish I was current. I'll bet I could get your ready. I'll bet Fast Eddie or 3Dreaming could also.


I know we have our differences, so I mean this in the most sincerest way possible. Thank you for the vote of confidence.

Never mind...
Last edited by TimTaylor on Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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