Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

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drseti
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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby drseti » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:50 pm

You may have missed out by a year and 45 days. My understanding is that FAA has a full year to implement the rule after the president signs the bill.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby Jack Tyler » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:19 pm

"Any thoughts on the impact to sport pilots..."
There have been many posts here that voiced the view it would provide ownership access to less expensive Part 23 aircraft, including those who haven't been able to afford a LSA. And also much conjecture about the ripple effect on used LSA prices. Buyers of new LSA's seem to come from a different financial strata than the most of us, so the impact on them might be less, except for those owners who felt they had to settle for less (useful load, passenger seats) performance than they need or would like. One thing's for sure: It will be the marketplace and not theories on forums that will now reveal the answers.

Yes, it's 10 years from this coming Friday...unless President Obama signs the Bill tomorrow.
Jack
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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby drseti » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:37 pm

The cost of a new LSA is set by manufacturing, transportation, and marketing costs, liability, economies of scale, and return on investment. The only one of those likely to be impacted by this legislation is economies of scale - if demand for new LSAs decreases because other options become available to many pilots, price on a new LSA may be forced to increase. OTOH, this may cause used LSA prices to fall as the market contracts. But there's not much elasticity here because the market is already pretty small, so I don't foresee much, if any, impact.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby designrs » Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:52 pm

drseti wrote:You may have missed out by a year and 45 days. My understanding is that FAA has a full year to implement the rule after the president signs the bill.


Just don't count weekends, holidays (of all religions), non-business days, periods of government shutdown, etc. and you should be good to go! :lol:
- Richard

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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby Kregster » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:37 pm

Ok, I have a question. My buddy was issued a Class III medical in 2007 (Special issuance 2 years) and never completed his training. The medical lapsed naturally in 2009. Years later, 2013 (ish) he obtained his Sport License and has been flying as a sport pilot ever since. He now wants to get his private under the new rules. Can he simply take the written, complete whatever additional hours/training is required, take the check ride and he is good to go? (assuming of course he can comply with the new regs) If so, when could he realistically begin training and take the test?

Thanks for the comments.

Kreg.

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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby Kregster » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:24 pm

Thanks for quick response..

Two thoughts:

1. I don't think Special Issuance is a concern. I understand that if you had a Class III, even with a Special Issuance you still qualify.

2. Can you train for and take your private pilot check ride in an LSA?

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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:52 pm

eyeflygps wrote:It's possible he could do his training (at least some of it) for Private now in an LSA. Then, after the law is in place, get checked out is a larger aircraft and take his Private checkride. I'm not totally certain about that, but I think someone here probaby knows for sure. Of course, he would need a part H flight instructor, not a Sport Pilot instructor.


If the LSA has the required equipment he can do all of the training and checkride for private pilot in the LSA. No need to transition into a bigger aircraft. You are correct that for the private he will need the required 20 hours of training from a sub part "H" instructor, and if he did his sport training with said instructor he should be in good shape.

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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby finbar » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:44 am

It's possible he could do his training (at least some of it) for Private now in an LSA. Then, after the law is in place, get checked out is a larger aircraft and take his Private checkride


You can take a Private checkride in an LSA; no need to check out in a larger aircraft first. But, unfortunately, I believe he would have to get a new Class III medical to take the Private checkride, even after the medical reform rules are implemented.

There's a regulation that says you cannot take a Private Pilot checkride without a valid Class III (or higher) medical. Suppose you were a Sport Pilot and wanted to get your Private, intending to operate within Sport Pilot privileges (there are reasons you might want to do that). Right now, today, an examiner can give a Private Pilot checkride in a suitable LSA. And, right now, with your driver's license as your medical, you can take the examiner flying and you can act as pilot in command for the flight, in an LSA. What you can't do, though, is take a Private Pilot checkride (in an LSA or anything else) unless you have a Class III medical. The same would apply to a Private Pilot, flying under Sport Pilot privileges, who wanted to add another rating (e.g., ASES) to the Private - can't do it without a Class III medical on the checkride, even if you can act as pilot in command of the aircraft you plan to use for the checkride without a Class III.

The new medical reform law is silent as to checkrides. It authorizes pilots to act as pilot in command, only. Since the FAA did not seem enthusiastic about the reform, it's likely they will leave the checkride medical requirement in place. So, after reform, you can operate using any privileges you already had, but to add new ratings you will need a current Class III medical (except for glider, SP, etc.). Unless, of course, the FAA rewrites the checkride regulation.

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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby designrs » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:00 am

The checkride medical requirement sounds like the first "afterthought" the FAA will have to deal with.
Kind of like when the original Sport Pilot Regs listed "no commercial operation" and then had to be amended to allow for flight training.

It's a no-brainer. If you are able to be pilot in command then you are able to be pilot in command!
Thus you should be able to fly the examiner.
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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby drseti » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:22 am

When I got my seaplane rating in January, it was in a J3 Cub on floats - definitely an LSA. I have a CP certificate with a lapsed medical, so I was not allowed to fly with a DPE, even though I was authorized to fly LSAs and (once I had the add-on rating) LSA seaplanes. But, how could I get the rating, if the lack of a medical preclued me flying with a DPE? Simple - fly a proficiency check with a second Instructor. This is how you add category and class privileges under Sport Pilot rules, and PBOR2 won't change that (even if your medical expired within the 10 year window).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:01 pm

I just scheduled a CFI renewal ride with a DPE.

I have no medical, but wanted to take the ride in my Sky Arrow. He pointed out 61.23, in part:

"3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate--

(vi) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate; or..."

I called the Atlanta FSDO and asked about it. They called back and said it would be fine to take my ride in my Light Sport, sans medical. They said the sole intent of the above reg was to ensure the applicant could be the PIC on the ride, so since I could it was fine. They said they'd be happy to communicate that interpretation to my DPE, to give him "cover", so to speak.

Anyway, my DPE actually called his local FSDO and got the same interpretation. So we have my CFI renewal ride scheduled in August in the Sky Arrow with no medical.

May or may not be applicable to any other particular case, so YMMV.
Fast Eddie B.
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Nomore767
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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby Nomore767 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:41 pm

drseti wrote:When I got my seaplane rating in January, it was in a J3 Cub on floats - definitely an LSA. I have a CP certificate with a lapsed medical, so I was not allowed to fly with a DPE, even though I was authorized to fly LSAs and (once I had the add-on rating) LSA seaplanes. But, how could I get the rating, if the lack of a medical preclued me flying with a DPE? Simple - fly a proficiency check with a second Instructor. This is how you add category and class privileges under Sport Pilot rules, and PBOR2 won't change that (even if your medical expired within the 10 year window).


Paul and EyeflyGPS,

Can I take a seaplane course, say like in Jack Brown's Cubs in FL, and ask for a 'sport' seaplane rating? I have an ATP and (I think) Commercial SEL, and I'm not interested in buying/flying a float-plane, and probably wouldn't fly a float-plane again (unless it was to re-do the course), so I'm not actually as much interested in achieving the rating as doing the float-plane flying probably in conjunction with a BFR. If it means getting the rating so be it.

Do you ask for the float-plane course as a sport pilot instead of as an ATP....remembering that I currently fly as a sport pilot with a lapsed medical.

Thanks for any info!

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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:19 pm

eyeflygps wrote:[

Eddie, can you solo the Sky Arrow from the back seat? If you want me to ride in the front while you practice from the rear, seat that is, let me know.


Thanks for the offer!

Strictly speaking, no, the Sky Arrow cannot be solo'd from the rear seat - too much essential stuff that can't be reached. Kind of like a Citabria, it has flight controls, pitch trim, PTT, throttle, carb heat, starter switch and fuel shut-off. Plenty for an instructor. But the ignitions, masters, all the switches and radio controls, flaps and flight instrument settings can only be accessed by the front seat pilot.

I think I've got things covered for now, but I'll let you know if I end up needing add'l help.

Thanks again!
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby ccandrews » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:26 pm

jjfjr wrote:Hi;

The full Senate has passed by unanimous consent the Pilot’s Bill of Rights 2, which will now go to the House for consideration before it can go to the president for a signature.

Any thoughts on the impact to sport pilots and/or sport pilot instructors? Is it now worth going for a sport pilot CFI if the bill eventually becomes law?

jjfjr


Obviously, this has the potential of giving us unprecedented options and choice of aircraft. It seems equally obvious that the extra freedom will be a bit of a blow to the LSA industry unless they adapt.

In my case, 95% of the time i am happy enough to fly within the sport pilot limits but:
Occasionally i would like to fly a little before dawn or a little after dusk,
I would appreciate a little more separation between me and the mountains.
The required reference to the ground is a bit of overkill.
occasionally i would like to pop through a thin layer of IMC to fly VFR on top.

On the flip side:
I want a modern aircraft with the latest wiz-bang panel
I want an aircraft that is very efficient, cost effective, and low fuel burn.
LSA almost fits my mission except their MTOW and VMC
The cost of a comparably equipped certified aircraft is unreasonable.

My ideal platform would be a LSA that the manufacturer approves a MTOW closer to 1500 lbs and approves for light IMC but, to keep it affordable, still has a special airworthiness certificate rather than fully certified.

I would like to see a manufacturer take their LSA and provide a special certification that offers a tiny bit outside the US-LSA restrictions. This may even be the exact aircraft that is rated higher outside of the USA. Pitch the prop to an optimum setting rather than 120knots limit, swap out the placards, update the POH, and (if necessary) use the certified rotax. Actually, can't suitably equipped LSA produced before the ASTM decided to exclude IMC operation be approved for actual IMC operation? If that is the case, then just the MTOW is the limiting factor.

Before you say it, i am aware that i don't know squat about the details of the regulations and what all would be involved with getting the special airworthiness on this "almost" S-LSA. However, i can't help but believe it would be worth it to the manufacturers to offer this cross-over platform. For me the choice is obvious between an ancient 172/177/182 and this mythical LSA++ based on a current-production P2008 or TL-3000 (or their equivalents for my wing-sitting brethren). If i ever want a co-owner, the pool of pilots interested in a certified aircraft partnership is much, much larger than the LSA pool.

This has all happened so quickly. I always thought the pilot's bill of rights was a pipe dream that would only happen in the distant future so I never really considered it a possibility. I was close to committing to an LSA but now have to start the selection process all over again and some decisions are even tougher than they were before. Including the big one which is to proceed now or wait and see how the bill of rights is actually implemented by the FAA. I am only one sale. but considering the size of the LSA market my purchase could make a reasonable difference to someone's 2016 financials rather than their 2017 financials. Maybe i don't have a clue, but, the time between now and when the FAA implements the new rules could be lean times for the LSA industry. Heck, i'm going to hit the treadmill and re-up my 3rd class just to preserve the option.

What are others doing in this same boat?

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Re: Senate passes pilot bill of rights 2

Postby Nomore767 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:43 pm

ccandrews wrote:
jjfjr wrote:Hi;

The full Senate has passed by unanimous consent the Pilot’s Bill of Rights 2, which will now go to the House for consideration before it can go to the president for a signature.

Any thoughts on the impact to sport pilots and/or sport pilot instructors? Is it now worth going for a sport pilot CFI if the bill eventually becomes law?

jjfjr


Obviously, this has the potential of giving us unprecedented options and choice of aircraft. It seems equally obvious that the extra freedom will be a bit of a blow to the LSA industry unless they adapt.

In my case, 95% of the time i am happy enough to fly within the sport pilot limits but:
Occasionally i would like to fly a little before dawn or a little after dusk,
I would appreciate a little more separation between me and the mountains.
The required reference to the ground is a bit of overkill.
occasionally i would like to pop through a thin layer of IMC to fly VFR on top.

On the flip side:
I want a modern aircraft with the latest wiz-bang panel
I want an aircraft that is very efficient, cost effective, and low fuel burn.
LSA almost fits my mission except their MTOW and VMC
The cost of a comparably equipped certified aircraft is unreasonable.

My ideal platform would be a LSA that the manufacturer approves a MTOW closer to 1500 lbs and approves for light IMC but, to keep it affordable, still has a special airworthiness certificate rather than fully certified.

I would like to see a manufacturer take their LSA and provide a special certification that offers a tiny bit outside the US-LSA restrictions. This may even be the exact aircraft that is rated higher outside of the USA. Pitch the prop to an optimum setting rather than 120knots limit, swap out the placards, update the POH, and (if necessary) use the certified rotax. Actually, can't suitably equipped LSA produced before the ASTM decided to exclude IMC operation be approved for actual IMC operation? If that is the case, then just the MTOW is the limiting factor.

Before you say it, i am aware that i don't know squat about the details of the regulations and what all would be involved with getting the special airworthiness on this "almost" S-LSA. However, i can't help but believe it would be worth it to the manufacturers to offer this cross-over platform. For me the choice is obvious between an ancient 172/177/182 and this mythical LSA++ based on a current-production P2008 or TL-3000 (or their equivalents for my wing-sitting brethren). If i ever want a co-owner, the pool of pilots interested in a certified aircraft partnership is much, much larger than the LSA pool.

This has all happened so quickly. I always thought the pilot's bill of rights was a pipe dream that would only happen in the distant future so I never really considered it a possibility. I was close to committing to an LSA but now have to start the selection process all over again and some decisions are even tougher than they were before. Including the big one which is to proceed now or wait and see how the bill of rights is actually implemented by the FAA. I am only one sale. but considering the size of the LSA market my purchase could make a reasonable difference to someone's 2016 financials rather than their 2017 financials. Maybe i don't have a clue, but, the time between now and when the FAA implements the new rules could be lean times for the LSA industry. Heck, i'm going to hit the treadmill and re-up my 3rd class just to preserve the option.

What are others doing in this same boat?


I can tell you what I'm doing.....being realistic. After a look at the PBOR2 changes I don't see much that's attractive to me. I just had a ride in a regular GA airplane and it went slower, was shabbier, less well equipped, and burned more fuel than my RV-12. Sure it could also carry a couple more people and more baggage but I never have a need to do that anyway. All in all my LSA does my mission, and more. Compared to some other LSAs on the market, it also does it at about $85k less.

I've thought about renewing my medical and ifI did I'd look seriously at the refurbished 150/152 or 172s by AOPA or Sportys. An almost new 172 for a lot less than a brand new one! Again, I don't really have the need.

For me, sport flying is simplicity, economics, better technology and performance. So far I've not been disappointed by any of the LSAs I've flown.

The weight is not likely to change and neither is the supposed demand for LSAs to do this, that and everything but still within their weight limitations. Folks say they want this or that LSA, with this or that option, and either don't buy it or buy one so loaded with options that it's utility becomes marginal.

I think the light sport market will still remain as it has been and I just don't see a mass rush back to GA just because of PBOR2. That said, I don't see a whole lot of flying activity at most airports around here, period.

I guess you have to choose which option provides the most bang for your mission buck....and get over the things you just can't have.


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