No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Here's the place to ask all of your medical questions. But don't believe everything you read!

Moderator: drseti

Nomore767
Posts: 890
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:28 pm

Interesting and frustrating afternoon.

I spoke with an aircraft financing company who flatly said 'no banks are financing Light Sport airplanes'. I found a 2012 Aviation News article supporting this.
Apparently the banks feel LSA values drop quickly and they have difficulty finding guides like auto 'blue books' with which they can ascertain the depreciation of LSAs and so don't want to get dumped upon.

It seems there are three bands of buyers…very eager tire kickers, buyers that will buy but need financing, and the top group who just write a check. This top group is responsible for nearly all LSA sales currently and manufacturers like Tecnam and Jabiruru are hugely frustrated at the lost sales.

Regarding Cessna and the Skycatcher, having spoken earlier this week with a dealer, to try and find out where Cessna were at with C162 sales, I was told Cessna would accept an offer of $120k plus options.

Today I was told:

"Cessna notified us yesterday that they have suspended sales of the Skycatcher. I’m sorry, it caught my factory rep off guard too – he wasn’t told ahead of time. Cessna will continue to support the Skycatcher’s in the field, but, they will not sell any more new from the factory."

I guess nobody wants my money?!

Cheers, Howard.

MovingOn
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:34 pm

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby MovingOn » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:32 pm

.......
Last edited by MovingOn on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nomore767
Posts: 890
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:41 pm

Ironically, Cessna Financing is much more relaxed & ready to finance a plane.

They just won't make any more of their LSA planes that they want to finance.

The lament at Sebring was…'sell more planes'!
Last edited by Nomore767 on Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MovingOn
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:34 pm

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby MovingOn » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:44 pm

.......
Last edited by MovingOn on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3Dreaming
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:51 pm

I doubt it will help, but Flight Design has been able to get financing for some customers.
http://flightdesignusa.com/how-to-buy/financing/

User avatar
dstclair
Posts: 1008
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 am
Location: Allen, TX

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby dstclair » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:35 pm

dave

User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 1901
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby MrMorden » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:45 pm

I used us aviation finance...they are doing it, and my rate was good.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

Nomore767
Posts: 890
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:53 pm

USAviation are on my list.

I'll call them tomorrow! Thanks. :|

User avatar
dstclair
Posts: 1008
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 am
Location: Allen, TX

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby dstclair » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:57 pm

They'll also be your insurance broker. Great bunch of folks.
dave

Jack Tyler
Posts: 1380
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:49 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby Jack Tyler » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:05 am

"I guess nobody wants my money?!"

Sounded from your post like *everyone* would like your money since most potential buyers can't find someone else's money to give a LSA dealer/distributor. (We could call your 3 bands of buyers "Fat Cats", "Buddy can you spare me a dime?" and "Walter Mittys".

Howard, you've pursued this LSA quest with as much determination as anyone who's posted here. And it appears you've found a few models you consider top notch but with high price tags and a lot of models that you view, bottom line, as not a suitable for you. You've made most of the rounds available to potential buyers, too. So where does that leave you now? And altho' it isn't the preference you started out with, have you reconciled yourself to becoming a Rotax mechanic if wanting to consider Rotax powered a/c?

I ask these Q's because you seem to me to be somewhat of a case study. As someone with a strong aviation background and who's been diligent about research and defining his mission, what conclusions does the LSA industry find you have reached in 2014?
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

tsnplanes
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:57 am

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby tsnplanes » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:28 am

I hear people talk of wanting to own a plane but only with very specific criteria. I really believe most have come to the place that owning the plane is much more of the equation than actually flying. We have those around us that own nice planes, keep them polished and know all about the avionics.... but do not fly. I just finished a BFR for a fellow with well over $250k investment and only flew 8 hrs last year. He is not current nor proficient, but can surely show off the plane. And he has payments ! These airplanes are nothing but big boy toys. Do not fool yourself into thinking they are an investment. I would much rather see people buy or rent and enjoy flight, share flight and stay current. If you cannot pay for the plane or use equity loan to purchase... you would be way ahead of the ball game to rent. Figure taxes, insurance, annuals, hangar space and routine maintenance for the average plane and most people can go rent a top of the line aircraft for twice the hours the usually fly. Stop trying to find a deal and go fly!

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2405
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:07 am

Jack Tyler wrote:I ask these Q's because you seem to me to be somewhat of a case study.


Agreed!

Kind of the polar opposite of an "impulse buyer".

And in no way would I disparage VERY serious consideration of a purchase of this size.

But there's an expression: "Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

At some point you just need to trust your heart and either fish or cut bait (sorry if I'm heavy on the expressions this morning!)

I also have a quibble about some of the "future value" calculations of his investments that he's made, which relate to what he perceives as his overall cost of ownership. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms!
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

Nomore767
Posts: 890
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby Nomore767 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:02 am

Jack Tyler wrote:"I guess nobody wants my money?!"

Sounded from your post like *everyone* would like your money since most potential buyers can't find someone else's money to give a LSA dealer/distributor. (We could call your 3 bands of buyers "Fat Cats", "Buddy can you spare me a dime?" and "Walter Mittys".

Howard, you've pursued this LSA quest with as much determination as anyone who's posted here. And it appears you've found a few models you consider top notch but with high price tags and a lot of models that you view, bottom line, as not a suitable for you. You've made most of the rounds available to potential buyers, too. So where does that leave you now? And altho' it isn't the preference you started out with, have you reconciled yourself to becoming a Rotax mechanic if wanting to consider Rotax powered a/c?

I ask these Q's because you seem to me to be somewhat of a case study. As someone with a strong aviation background and who's been diligent about research and defining his mission, what conclusions does the LSA industry find you have reached in 2014?


Jack,

I would say the Sebring experience was a microcosm of my LSA experience so far. Don't get me wrong , it was a good show…sort of.
As with many things, there's LSA and then there's the real world.
A few examples…the vast majority of the audience at Sebring was made up of older white guys. Very few women and very few minorities which I found odd as traveling around I see many more flying and otherwise involved in aviation. I would say most old guys were looking for the driver's license medical access to flying. However, I saw many struggle to access the numerous low wing models. One of the things that I dislike about them too. The Cessna and Tecnams were a whole lot easier to board than the Sport Cruiser, Bristell, RV12 etc
This leads to a point, why make airplanes that mostly the older crowd can even think about owing which they have difficulty accessing?
Another point…the LSA 'industry' is moving along fast…avionics, gadgets, wonderful stuff…but there is a disconnect between them and the customer. Hence the long lines of guys at the Garmin, Dynon booths trying to absorb info from a sharp young kid. I stood next to an older guy (well older than me!) who was busily writing down what he 'needed' to buy to make his panel state of the art. The nice kid answered all his questions, but it seemed to me that the guys plane was flying fine and why did he need the multiple G3X, autopilot, this screen and that..especially as at the end he complained that there was inadequate info on how to operate all this stuff so how did he arrive at the point that he 'needed' it? The guy complained a lot that he didn't understand 'this stuff' and that garmin should make videos explaining how it all worked!

There were many things that could have been there…aircraft financing, insurance, the costs of owning/operating etc. Maybe they were but I didn't see them. Nothing from any place that operates a flight school which rents LSAs as opposed to owning. No workshops on ownership, buying, insuring, hangars etc
Many beautiful planes, with the companies absorbed with adding this and that feature and bumping prices out of the roof. Legend for example 'sells' the …just like the old days, low n slow, we fixed the Cub schtick…and then parks it's 'every man's' Cub on the ramp with a price tag up to $160k. But it's got an autopilot and a Garmin electronic cockpit! Um, okay…To be fair they sell a bare basics one…it's just not at the show. Instead the 'electric Cub' on floats.
So, disconnect…in my view.

To me the big disconnect is that Light Sport isn't fulfilling it's own 'mission'….no young people can find many schools or LSAs to rent and learn to fly in. The only ones who can come close to buying and owning one are older wealthy people. The group in the middle are stymied because they aren't wealthy enough to buy outright and there aren't avenues to get them into an airplane. In the meantime…hey have you seen the new Super Plane it can do this and that etc

I've learned a lot about Rotax engines here and at the show. I'm more confident in owning one and yes, I would probably at least do the Rotax courses and maybe consider the Light Sport Repairman certificate.

My conclusion on LSA 2014 is…I'm still looking at the remaining options and am excited. I think I'm close to the end point though. However, the best option might be to just get my medical back and join the local flying club and fly old C152 and 172s and forget LSA altogether. If the DL rule changes (if) then I think Light Sport will shrink even more, which is a shame as the excitement is coming from the innovations from the European manufacturers. I think then the disconnect will be even greater.
The rest of us will be resigned to flying ho-hum old generic GA planes that are 'okay' and thankful that we can still fly ….something.

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5679
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby drseti » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:14 am

Nomore767 wrote:Nothing from any place that operates a flight school which rents LSAs as opposed to owning.


Howard, that's because most of us operating such facilities are operating at the margin, trying to hold down the rental costs for our customers. Speaking for AvSport, our whole annual advertising budget is $1000. The cost of a booth at Expo is waaaaay beyond our reach. So, how do we get the word out about affordable LSA rentals, without driving up the cost of those rentals??
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

Nomore767
Posts: 890
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: No financing for new LSAs and no new Skycatchers.

Postby Nomore767 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:37 am

drseti wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Nothing from any place that operates a flight school which rents LSAs as opposed to owning.


Howard, that's because most of us operating such facilities are operating at the margin, trying to hold down the rental costs for our customers. Speaking for AvSport, our whole annual advertising budget is $1000. The cost of a booth at Expo is waaaaay beyond our reach. So, how do we get the word out about affordable LSA rentals, without driving up the cost of those rentals??



Paul,

I hear you, I really do.

I actually think the manufacturers are crazy not to spend a few more of their precious dollars on 'selling' renting, owning, & the whole Light Sport mission and it's capabilities. It's one thing to be 'selling' the latest, greatest, Light Sport Turbo Composite dream machine…but if the kid can't find a school, the guy can't find a place to learn or rent…why would he buy? Then, to top it all, if they make it nigh impossible for him to come close to buying the product…well, then don't get pissed off if you didn't sell any planes this week.

Fast forward…the old GA planes get older, the older pilots stop flying, and the younger generation are more interested on what they can do on their game box. It's not going to get better.

Light Sport isn't 'selling' it's mission, it's opportunities, or it's potential. It's too bogged down in GPSs Ads-Bs, glass cockpits….instead of getting folks into planes and flying.

That's my opinion of course.
Last edited by Nomore767 on Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Medical Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests