10 mile final....

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dstclair
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10 mile final....

Postby dstclair » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:56 pm

I just experienced one of the timeless aviation debates, straight-in approach vs. 'normal pattern', at KGLE in the Dallas area. I was approaching the untowered airport from the SE and was just about to announce myself 6 miles SE of the airport when another pilot came on and declared a '10 mile' final. Really? I was hoping this was a high-performance plane but, of course, it was a C172. I made several announcements including when crossing midfield. The Cessna was still 4 miles out to the south (with regular reporting) and undaunted by myself and another plane that was 2 miles north. I advised I was going to maneuver west of the airport for spacing and got a weak 'thanks' from the straight-in 172. After doing an extra 360, I entered downwind and still had to slow my pattern to allow him to get to what I would call a real final. He called out he was doing a touch-n-go and staying in the pattern. I just don't get it -- especially since he was coming to the airport to practice. Why not run the pattern and practice AIM-style entries? Oh well.
dave

3Dreaming
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:31 pm

My response would be, "Unless you are on the final segment of an instrument approach you can't be on final, because you are not in the traffic pattern.". :evil:

Trust me I have said it before in real life. We used to get students from a university flight school, and the students would announce a 10-20 mile final. They also used to show up and call Right traffic, because that was the direction they were coming from. I let their chief instructor know they were doing a disservice to their students, and they fixed the problem. They stopped coming to our airport. :roll:

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dstclair
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby dstclair » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:47 pm

My response would be, "Unless you are on the final segment of an instrument approach you can't be on final, because you are not in the traffic pattern.". :evil:
Great line -- I'll use it going forward!
dave

TimTaylor
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby TimTaylor » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:03 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vd604kwsr0sat81/AC90-66A.pdf?dl=0

A straight-in approach is acceptable, but you should only do it if the airport is not busy and you can blend into the other traffic and not disrupt their traffic pattern. The few times I have done it, I annouced, "10 miles out, planning to make straight-in to RW05 if I can do so without interfering with anyone else in the pattern. Otherwise, I will break it off and enter upwind to RW05."

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FastEddieB
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:58 pm

As a single data point, I don’t think I’ve made a single straight-in approach to a non-towered field in at least a decade, if not more. It’s just not something I do.

I just make overflying the field at 500’ above the pattern the first thing I do. I think it gives me the best view of the windsock and possible wildlife or other obstructions on the runway. Then I maneuver so as to enter the downwind at about a 45°angle at about midfield. I’m most comfortable doing that, but I’m always alert for other pilots who like to roll their own, so to speak.
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drseti
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby drseti » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:31 am

I gave a student a simulated engine failure last week, and he made a very acceptable straight-in glider approach and successful "wrong way" landing. The field and pattern were completely deserted, but we still announced the hell out of it.
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3Dreaming
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:10 am

I've flown straight in approaches before when I am not disrupting anyone else. In an emergency I don't care if there is other traffic, if I need to come straight in I will. My point was "Final" is a segment of the traffic pattern or instrument approach. If you are 10 miles from the airport and not on an instrument approach you are not in the traffic pattern, so you can't be on final. You can be 10 miles out and lined up to enter final, but not on final.

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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby drseti » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:39 am

Good point, Tom. A proper call would have been "ten out for a straight-in approach to runway XX, traffic permitting."
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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TimTaylor
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:30 pm

Tom, I don't think anyone disagreed with your point that you are not on final while 10 miles out.

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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:07 pm

Another time I have used a straight-in approach is when I felt traffic was using the wrong runway. They were using RW23 with a strong cross-wind and I wanted to use RW29, which the wind was straight down, and I was approaching from the east. So, I announced and made a straight-in to RW29 and was able to blend into the other traffic and not create a problem for anyone. There were only one or two other airplanes in the pattern.

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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:07 pm

TimTaylor wrote:Tom, I don't think anyone disagreed with your point that you are not on final while 10 miles out.


Maybe not, I just wanted to make sure my point was clear.

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joey4420
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby joey4420 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:48 am

As a new sport pilot, I have always tried to fly as close to a standard approach as possible, I have gotten into the habit of midfield cross to downwind as needed though.

Keeping with the topic though, I flew home from KEYE (Eagle Creek outside of Indianapolis IN) to KHAO (Butler Co Regional OH) it was an 86 mile straight in approach. I started making calls 10 miles out and no one was in the pattern or I would have gone south and entered the 45 to downwind since we do get lots of jet traffic, but this day no one was in the air when I came in.
Joey
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FastEddieB
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby FastEddieB » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:44 am

joey4420 wrote:Keeping with the topic though, I flew home from KEYE (Eagle Creek outside of Indianapolis IN) to KHAO (Butler Co Regional OH) it was an 86 mile straight in approach.


That certainly is legal, and you’ll come to find your own way on this.

But my question would be, what do you think you may have gained by not following your normal practice in the above case - that is, overflying the field first, and then entering the pattern the recommended manner?

The only justifications I can think of is to save maybe a tenth on the Hobbs, thereby saving a tiny modicum of fuel, or avoiding a certain amount of maneuvering at the end of a flight.

I also see that that KHAO lies beneath Class B. Was that a factor?

Is it one of these, or something else I’m missing?
Fast Eddie B.
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joey4420
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby joey4420 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:58 am

FastEddieB wrote:
joey4420 wrote:Keeping with the topic though, I flew home from KEYE (Eagle Creek outside of Indianapolis IN) to KHAO (Butler Co Regional OH) it was an 86 mile straight in approach.


That certainly is legal, and you’ll come to find your own way on this.

But my question would be, what do you think you may have gained by not following your normal practice in the above case - that is, overflying the field first, and then entering the pattern the recommended manner?

The only justifications I can think of is to save maybe a tenth on the Hobbs, thereby saving a tiny modicum of fuel, or avoiding a certain amount of maneuvering at the end of a flight.

I also see that that KHAO lies beneath Class B. Was that a factor?

Is it one of these, or something else I’m missing?



I have never done a straight in approach and there was no traffic, so figured why not learn how to do one in case I ever had that emergency I knew what it would look and felt like.

The Bravo Shelf had nothing to do with it. I fly under the shelf all the time, I have yet to talk to the tower or any tower actually; since I don't have that sign off in my logbook yet. That is a goal for this summer though.

I don't let the Hobbs or in my case the Tach time bother me, I fly for fun and freedom. I even fly most weekends 2 hours one way just to try some new lunch place, taking the $100 hamburger to the max.
Joey
Cincinnati OH
Sport Pilot
Ercoupe N99773

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drseti
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby drseti » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:02 am

I know! I know!
Joey would have flown the pattern, but he got distracted looking for the rudder pedals.

:D
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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