Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

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3Dreaming
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:14 pm

From listening to this board I wonder how anyone was able to fly back in the old days, like when the sport pilot rules went into effect.

the military is to blame for this, so I doubt anyone is going to be able to change it.

SportPilot
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby SportPilot » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:34 pm

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Last edited by SportPilot on Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrMorden
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby MrMorden » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:08 pm

SportPilot wrote:Look out the freaking window.

I've been flying 51+ years. I've only had ADS-B out/in for 1 1/2 years. It is possible to fly safely without it.


Our little puddle jumpers are not the problem. The bigger issue is airliners going 250 knots or more, with limited visibility, who might not get traffic alerts.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby SportPilot » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:11 pm

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Last edited by SportPilot on Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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designrs
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby designrs » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:59 am

I assure you that majority of Florida is busy airspace. I've had multiple close proximity traffic on ADS-B, simultaneously, on an almost daily basis... NONE of which where "seen to avoid".

Now we didn't even start to talk about the haze or flying into the sun.
Nor did we talk about multiple surrounding military bases, some aircraft operate above 250 knots below 10,000 feet.

The F-16 that t-boned the Cessna was allegedly practicing instrument approaches.

My ADS-B just shipped out for an upgrade... I consider my plane grounded.
Maybe if I were elsewhere I'd still fly (upstate NY or rural PA).
I wouldn't consider flying Florida without it though. Others do, but I will not.

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designrs
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby designrs » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:07 am

Anybody know if AOPA is acting on this NOTAM?
I realize they are our advocate and that the third-class medical exemption is the mother of all aviation issues... however after such a looooong and drawn out process I can't help thinking that it's a lot of posing and hot air talk without results.

It would be nice to have an advocate with "big ones" go after this issue,

This NOTAM is either a liability cover, gross incompetence, or an extraordinary situation that needs to be explained. Anybody hear that happening? The pilot community deserves an explanation for such an extreme NOTAM. I haven't heard any explanations yet, but I'd love to hear then.

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MrMorden
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby MrMorden » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:31 am

SportPilot wrote:
MrMorden wrote:
SportPilot wrote:Look out the freaking window.

I've been flying 51+ years. I've only had ADS-B out/in for 1 1/2 years. It is possible to fly safely without it.


Our little puddle jumpers are not the problem. The bigger issue is airliners going 250 knots or more, with limited visibility, who might not get traffic alerts.
And what's different than the past 50 years? "The sky is falling, the sky is falling." They are on IFR clearances with guaranteed ATC separation (from other IFR traffic). Stay away from Hartsfield and below 10,000 feet and you'll be fine.


Airplanes flew for many years without shoulder belts. If somebody came along and tore them all out, I'd consider it a potential problem. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think "STFU and quit yer crying, airplanes have flown without it before" is a good response to the degradation of safety equipment. I think asking questions is valid here.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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MrMorden
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby MrMorden » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:34 am

designrs wrote:Anybody know if AOPA is acting on this NOTAM?
I realize they are our advocate and that the third-class medical exemption is the mother of all aviation issues... however after such a looooong and drawn out process I can't help thinking that it's a lot of posing and hot air talk without results.


Honestly, I let my AOPA membership lapse. I think EAA is our real advocate, every e-mail I every receive from AOPA is basically of the "OMG we need more money now!!!" type. I feel EAA is much more effective and has a less bloated structure.

Just IMO, of course.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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designrs
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby designrs » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:37 am

I've been wanting to join EAA.
AOPA is up for renewal.
Good time for a switch.

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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby SportPilot » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:53 am

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Last edited by SportPilot on Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:13 am

MrMorden wrote: Airplanes flew for many years without shoulder belts. If somebody came along and tore them all out, I'd consider it a potential problem. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think "STFU and quit yer crying, airplanes have flown without it before" is a good response to the degradation of safety equipment. I think asking questions is valid here.


Andy, for me it is not a "STFU" situation. In my opinion it is the degradation of basic pilot skills and over reliance on electronic equipment. To many people seem to be falling into the latter group.

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designrs
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby designrs » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:44 am

Point taken... basic pilot skills need to me maintained. Fact is... ADS-B IN/OUT will see very real threats pre-emptive, way before anyone's eyes see them... IF they even see them at all.

To caution or render such safety services as "may be unreliable" in a widespread and long lasting NOTAM ineeds to be thoroughly explained and remedied.

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MrMorden
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby MrMorden » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:46 am

3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote: Airplanes flew for many years without shoulder belts. If somebody came along and tore them all out, I'd consider it a potential problem. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think "STFU and quit yer crying, airplanes have flown without it before" is a good response to the degradation of safety equipment. I think asking questions is valid here.


Andy, for me it is not a "STFU" situation. In my opinion it is the degradation of basic pilot skills and over reliance on electronic equipment. To many people seem to be falling into the latter group.


A agree there is an over-reliance on technology, and a lot of it's not required. But I also think that where the tech serves to help make us safer, it's a good thing. And I think "see and avoid" is a hard thing to make happen in two airliners that have limited visibility and potential closing speeds of 800 knots or more.

For the record, I don't have any traffic system in my airplane except the Mk. I eyeball. I just hate to see those with traffic systems having degraded performance for no specified reason. After all, having other people with traffic warning systems helps keep me safe too.

But I guess if we let these systems work as designed, then the terrorists have won. :lol:
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

Jack Tyler
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby Jack Tyler » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:52 am

"Honestly, I let my AOPA membership lapse. I think EAA is our real advocate, every e-mail I every receive from AOPA is basically of the "OMG we need more money now!!!" type."

I'm pretty surprised at that kind of comment, given the strenuous, ongoing advocacy AOPA has demonstrated over the last two years related to medical reform and the broader set of pilot protection issues. EAA's advocacy agenda is more focused and has been far less in evidence WRT both GAPPA initiatives, whereas AOPA has been carrying the bulk of the water. On a more local level, it was only AOPA that answered the call when a local airport volunteer group in southcentral FL needed help dealing with the FAA's ADO that wanted to restrict the group from establishing a beautiful campground on their airport. (Look up http://foaa.us/airport-camping/ for a neat story). Moreover, it was AOPA that wanted this group to take their 3-year learning curve and build it into an advisory circular for other support groups to benefit from. The EAA. altho' asked, was not a player in either issue.

I sympathize with Andy's comment about being consistently hammered by fund raising appeals. But that doesn't stop me - and maybe Andy, too - from watching/listening to the many PBS programs. My way of balancing the money raising bandwagon with my AOPA membership is to reflect on how much I've benefited by the many, many safety products offered by AOPA's ASI, aside from their advocacy efforts.

Seems to me, based on my three decades in GA, there's never been a time when we've more needed to band together and speak with a concentrated voice. Belonging to each of these various GA advocacy organizations strikes me as absolutely fundamental to that circumstance. I can tell you from personal experience that, when advocating with a federal or state agency, membership numbers are about the first thing asked.
Jack
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Re: Traffic Service Unreliable - What the Hell is This?!!

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:24 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote: Airplanes flew for many years without shoulder belts. If somebody came along and tore them all out, I'd consider it a potential problem. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think "STFU and quit yer crying, airplanes have flown without it before" is a good response to the degradation of safety equipment. I think asking questions is valid here.


Andy, for me it is not a "STFU" situation. In my opinion it is the degradation of basic pilot skills and over reliance on electronic equipment. To many people seem to be falling into the latter group.


I think the thing to realise is that ADSB isn't designed FOR small airplane fliers but for the ATC's Next Gen era and to supplement and outright replace transponders. Its intended to provide better ATC in congested terminal areas and airways, we just happen to be at the end of the trough in terms of importance UNTIL we decide to fly near/in their congested airspace.

Yes you can fly without it, but it keeps you out of the busier airspace and that's fine for everyone if it suits you. Problem is that there are new pilots coming in who have known nothing but iPads, glass screens and autopilots. The tail is in danger of wagging the dog.

I recently flew in another guy's LSA with him and he flies all the time with autopilot on and arrived at the pattern consistently, too fast, too close and on the wrong side. Although he extolled flying 'the old fashioned way' he was heads down a large percent of the time.
There was actually nothing happening on his 696 or iPad in terms of traffic weather or anything else but he kept focussed on it.

Not only the degradation of basic skills but a growing lack of airmanship and just being an airman.


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