Base To Final

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designrs
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Base To Final

Postby designrs » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:52 am

There was a recent base to final crash (not LSA) which prompted refresher reading. It also made me grateful for my LSA's low stall speed and forgiving nature. Here's an article discussing typical causes of the base to final stall / crash:

http://www.flyingmag.com/safety/acciden ... ning-final

CTLSi
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Re: Base To Final

Postby CTLSi » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:36 pm

The deadmans spin is the result of stall on base to final. The fastest way to do that is to pull the nose up in a banking turn where the load factor raises stall speed higher than the POH stall speeds low to the ground (the result of too much bank and too little power).

If you want to make sure you are safe, first make sure the ball is centered. If you get the ball out, make sure to lower the nose and if necessary add throttle. If lowering the nose makes you too low, go around.

Don't over complicate. You want to figure this out as soon as possible since you are low to the ground.
Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Base To Final

Postby FastEddieB » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:34 pm

Just to be clear...

...spins and spirals are very different animals.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
FastEddieB@mac.com

BrianL99
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Re: Base To Final

Postby BrianL99 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:49 pm

CTLSi wrote:The deadmans spin (graveyard spiral) is the result of stall on base to final.


As Fast Eddie noted, that's not the case.

A "Graveyard Spiral" is a result of spatial disorientation, usually while flying in IMC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_spiral

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184306-1.html

CTLSi wrote:
If you want to make sure you are safe, first make sure the ball is centered.


Are you suggesting an airplane can't stall in coordinated flight?

http://www.bruceair.com/stall-spin/stalls.htm

SportPilot
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Re: Base To Final

Postby SportPilot » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:29 pm

.......
Last edited by SportPilot on Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wm.Ince
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Re: Base To Final

Postby Wm.Ince » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:07 pm

CTLSi wrote:The deadmans spin (graveyard spiral) is the result of stall on base to final. The fastest way to do that is to pull the nose up in a banking turn where the load factor raises stall speed higher than the POH stall speeds low to the ground (the result of too much bank and too little power).

If you want to make sure you are safe, first make sure the ball is centered. If you get the ball out, make sure to lower the nose and if necessary add throttle. If lowering the nose makes you too low, go around.

Don't over complicate. You want to figure this out as soon as possible since you are low to the ground.

You are far from being any type of authority on this. What's more, historically, there seems to be a credibility deficit.
Study hard, practice and keep learning.
Leave the flight instruction to the Certified Flight Instructors. There is plenty of talent here.
Bill Ince
CTSW
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator

BrianL99
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Re: Base To Final

Postby BrianL99 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:31 am

Wm.Ince wrote:
CTLSi wrote:You are far from being any type of authority on this. What's more, historically, there seems to be a credibility deficit.
Study hard, practice and keep learning.
Leave the flight instruction to the Certified Flight Instructors. There is plenty of talent here.



^^^^^^^

We need a "Like" button.

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MrMorden
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Re: Base To Final

Postby MrMorden » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:58 am

I tripped one time off a curb due to being massively uncoordinated.

Was I in danger of entering a graveyard spiral? I was very close to the ground. Maybe six inches or so.

8)
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

CTLSi
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Re: Base To Final

Postby CTLSi » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:34 am

Everything I stated is true...keep the ball centered, keep the nose down, keep the bank 30 degrees or less and you have a safe, winning formula for landing success....everytime.

CTLSi
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Re: Base To Final

Postby CTLSi » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:58 am

SportPilot wrote:
CTLSi wrote:If you want to make sure you are safe, first make sure the ball is centered. If you get the ball out, make sure to lower the nose and if necessary add throttle.
Step on the ball. Uncoordinated flight has nothing to do with nose being high or low or too little or too much power. You can also bank away from the ball.


This is a different subject. The discussion is base to final and stalling in that turn.

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dstclair
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Re: Base To Final

Postby dstclair » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:41 am

I hope all of us look at NTSB reports as a learning tool. In this instance, I saw two tangible facts:

* The pilot was turning base-to-final at approximately 214' AGL. This is very low for a standard pattern and allows little time for recovery from an unplanned event. I'm typically around 500' AGL when I'm established on Final.

* The pilot was steeply banked at a low airspeed (and a low altitude).

Fixing either one of these might of saved the pilot (assuming 500' AGL is sufficient for CAPS).

Of course, there is the question of 'why' an experienced pilot made those decisions but we'll never know for sure why. We can cement the results of these decisions in our brains and try not to repeat them.
dave

SportPilot
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Re: Base To Final

Postby SportPilot » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:13 am

.......
Last edited by SportPilot on Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BrianL99
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Re: Base To Final

Postby BrianL99 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:58 pm

dstclair wrote:I hope all of us look at NTSB reports as a learning tool. In this instance, I saw two tangible facts:

* The pilot was turning base-to-final at approximately 214' AGL. This is very low for a standard pattern and allows little time for recovery from an unplanned event. I'm typically around 500' AGL when I'm established on Final.


I read that, did the math ... figured there was a typo. Who would be turning base to final at 214' AGL? If I remember correctly, he was flying the entire pattern way below recommended altitude.

Like you, I was taught I should be at about 500' AGL when established on final.

SportPilot
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Re: Base To Final

Postby SportPilot » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:06 pm

.......

HAPPYDAN
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Re: Base To Final

Postby HAPPYDAN » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:12 am

As I mentioned some months ago, very early in my training, like about the third lesson, I did exactly that. Overbanked from base to final, got too slow, and the inside wing just dropped. CFI caught the plane and recovered quickly. Scared the doo-doo out of me. I think that may be why it took me so long to get landings down.


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