CAPS (BRS) pin in place

This forum is for safety-related discussions. Be safe out there!

Moderator: drseti

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2494
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:37 am

Long thread on COPA about an accident in Tallahassee, FL back on 11/13/2008, and a subsequent lawsuit against Sandel.

I'll link to the NTSB report* later, but this was heartbreaking:

Image

Can't say if it was a training deficiency or a lack of checklist discipline or something else, but its still sad.


*What I have right now is the Docket, where the photo came from: http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=47979&CFID=453763&CFTOKEN=77815656

NTSB Report: [https://ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20081113X13150&ntsbno=ERA09FA053&akey=1
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

3Dreaming
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:01 am

When I got my first CT I was reluctant to pull the pin, now it is attached to the ignition key. It has been that way for quite a while.

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2494
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:37 am

Yep!

There's no guarantee that even with the pin removed, he would have pulled.

Things can happen very fast at approach altitudes, and if not "primed" for "Pull Early/Pull Often" it probably will not happen regardless.

Lots of dead pilots and passengers who had the pin out and never pulled when it very probably would have saved their lives.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

Wm.Ince
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:27 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby Wm.Ince » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:39 am

FastEddieB wrote:Yep!
There's no guarantee that even with the pin removed, he would have pulled.
Things can happen very fast at approach altitudes, and if not "primed" for "Pull Early/Pull Often" it probably will not happen regardless.
Lots of dead pilots and passengers who had the pin out and never pulled when it very probably would have saved their lives.

Point very well taken.
Bill Ince
CTSW
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator

Nomore767
Posts: 899
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby Nomore767 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:09 pm

When I did a couple of lessons in a CTLS at a SC school it was the first time I'd experienced a BRS. The CFI was concerned that the pin was kept in and that he'd pull it first and then pull the chute if we had a significant emergency.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.

User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby MrMorden » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:39 pm

Nomore767 wrote:When I did a couple of lessons in a CTLS at a SC school it was the first time I'd experienced a BRS. The CFI was concerned that the pin was kept in and that he'd pull it first and then pull the chute if we had a significant emergency.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.


Misplaced concern, IMO. The penalty for an accidental deployment is a hefty insurance claim...the penalty for not being able to pull it in time is death. In a low altitude stall/spin, that pin in there virtually guarantees no options. You'd have to be quick on the trigger to save yourself in that scenario with a BRS, with the pin in it's a non-starter.

Plenty of other scenarios you can envision where a two-step operation will not work well also. Plus in a real life-or-death emergency the first thing to go is fine motor coordination, like pulling a small pin from the BRS handle. There is a reason that handle is big and easy to grab and pull.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

3Dreaming
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:54 pm

I sat though a seminar given by one of the guys from BRS. He told of an accident where the handle bracket was deformed by the pilot trying to pull it with the pin still in place. This and having the chance to see what the forces were that are required to pull the handle made me change my mind about pulling the pin.

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2494
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:10 pm

Nomore767 wrote:When I did a couple of lessons in a CTLS at a SC school it was the first time I'd experienced a BRS. The CFI was concerned that the pin was kept in and that he'd pull it first and then pull the chute if we had a significant emergency.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.


Just curious: is removing the pin a checklist item?

If so, I'd have qualms about an instructor sending the message: "Don't worry about the manufacturer's checklist - we'll do it my way".

Not to say I've never said those words!
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby MrMorden » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:35 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:When I did a couple of lessons in a CTLS at a SC school it was the first time I'd experienced a BRS. The CFI was concerned that the pin was kept in and that he'd pull it first and then pull the chute if we had a significant emergency.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.


Just curious: is removing the pin a checklist item?

If so, I'd have qualms about an instructor sending the message: "Don't worry about the manufacturer's checklist - we'll do it my way".

Not to say I've never said those words!


I can't speak to the CTLS, but on my CTSW it's in there for sure. In fact, the pre-takeoff checklist is printed on a factory sticker on my panel. Every checklist item is printed in black text on a yellow background, except "RESCUE SYSTEM: PIN OUT" is printed in black on red to make it stand out.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

Merlinspop
Posts: 998
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:48 pm
Location: WV Eastern Panhandle

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby Merlinspop » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:44 pm

The box of Epi-Pens I bought last time I had an impressive reaction to a bee sting (I really should re-consider having a hive in my back yard... not 'hits' at all last year, though), it came with a 'practice pen' so I could see exactly how to arm and how hard to smack my leg with it in order to make it fire.

Manufactures of BRS equipped planes or an aftermarket company could make available a mock up of the handle that you can clamp to a table, or door frame (whatever) that replicates the feel of the handle and the amount of tug needed to fire off the parachute. Heck, if you know how hard the handle has to be pulled, at least you can put an eye bolt into a stud, hook up a fish scale and pull until the scale reaches the magic number. At least this will give you (or a student or prospective buyer) an idea of the pull necessary.
- Bruce

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2494
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:52 pm

I've pulled in a Cirrus CAPS simulator, and it is NOT something you could easily do accidentally.

"2. Activation Handle (Both Hands)......PULL STRAIGHT DOWN Approximately 45 lbs of force is required to active CAPS. Pull the handle with both hands in a chin-up style pull until the handle is fully extended."

Source: http://cirrusaircraft.com/static/img/CAPS_Guide.pdf, itself an interesting read.

I've also NOT pulled, and died, but I think you all know that story!
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

BrianL99
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place

Postby BrianL99 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:50 pm

FastEddieB wrote:Long thread on COPA about an accident in Tallahassee, FL back on 11/13/2008, and a subsequent lawsuit against Sandel.

I'll link to the NTSB report* later, but this was heartbreaking:

NTSB Report: [https://ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20081113X13150&ntsbno=ERA09FA053&akey=1



As we both know from years on the Cirrus Forum Eddie, the "pull early and pull often" was drilled into everyone's head. I think the parachutes are sort of an afterthought in LSA's and a lot of people either aren't convinced or haven't spent enough time thinking about and discussing the value and proper usage.

I flew with (2) instructors in an LSA before I bought my Sting and neither pulled the parachute pin, in spite of it being on the Checklist. I pulled it and gave both instructors some "instruction" on the proper usage of whole plane parachutes. Neither had ever flown a Cirrus and were very unsophisticated when it came to what a parachute can and can't do and when to consider using it.


Return to “Safety Corner”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest