Power plant and dams

[designrs]

The TFR over Camp David is 20 to 30 nautical miles in diameter. The warning area shown is 20 nautical miles. If POTUS is moving from the White House to Camp David, such as when they had the G8 summit, the whole DC SFRA goes TFR.

I happened to be flying just before the G8 summit TFR went live,
returning to KGAI about 40 minutes before the TFR went active.

Military helicopters were continuously overflying.
VIP's were escorted in helicopter sorties of three, as is usually the case with POTUS
as seen in many YouTube videos.

The G8 procession was a big operation as there were so many dignitaries to be shuttled back and forth.
It was actually pretty cool to observe from the ground.

[3Dreaming]

I suppose the size of the TFR would be a function of the potential threats and how they plan to respond and how long that would take. At least I hope it's more than some arbitrary dimensions. The smaller the TFR, the less time they have to decide to shoot down a plane or not.

As a pilot I don't see a small aircraft as a threat. It is those who know nothing about small aircraft that perceive them as threats. Someone who wants to do something is not going to follow the NOTAM anyway.

[MovingOn]

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[designrs]

Any airplane could be a threat. The notam is to keep the good guys away so they can deal with the bad guys.

I don't believe that they caught any bad guys yet, just the stupid, or lost, or mentally unstable, or the occasional good guys by mistake! LOL

Seriously, the incidents that come to mind:
1) at least a dozens of inadvertent TFR / SFRA deviations by people who mean no harm
2) lost students
3) unfamiliar
4) mentaly unstable individual that crossed the Canadian border into the USA, refused to communicate, kept flying, came very close to being shot down, and was sentenced to 2 years in jail
5) grandma and grandpa going to visit the kids and innocently happened to be flying a well know drug-traficing route
6) and... (drumroll please)... the most famous detention of John and Martha King... (second drumroll please)... because the FAA reassigned a stolen aircraft N-number direct to Cessna!!

[3Dreaming]

Your right any airplane could be a threat, in fact anything could be a threat. I think there are far greater threats than a small aircraft. I think the airspace is shut down simply as a feel good measure. If they tried to shut down access to all the other possible threats there would be an outcry from the general public. Could you imagine what would be said if they shut all businesses and roads down within one mile of POTUS where ever he is at, including while he is moving. That is what they do to aviation businesses within a 30 mile radius with every one of the NOTAM's they issue for him. If 3 mile radius is OK to protect 40,000 plus people in a stadium, it should be good enough for POTUS.

[MovingOn]

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[3Dreaming]

Any airplane could be a threat. The notam is to keep the good guys away so they can deal with the bad guys.

I don't believe that they caught any bad guys yet, just the stupid, or lost, or mentally unstable, or the occasional good guys by mistake! LOL

Seriously, the incidents that come to mind:
1) at least a dozens of inadvertent TFR / SFRA deviations by people who mean no harm
2) lost students
3) unfamiliar
4) mentaly unstable individual that crossed the Canadian border into the USA, refused to communicate, kept flying, came very close to being shot down, and was sentenced to 2 years in jail
5) grandma and grandpa going to visit the kids and innocently happened to be flying a well know drug-traficing route
6) and... (drumroll please)... the most famous detention of John and Martha King... (second drumroll please)... because the FAA reassigned a stolen aircraft N-number direct to Cessna!!

And a 70 year old lady going for a daily flight in her Champ, with no clue that POTUS was in town.

[3Dreaming]

Any airplane could be a threat. The notam is to keep the good guys away so they can deal with the bad guys.

I don't believe that they caught any bad guys yet, just the stupid, or lost, or mentally unstable, or the occasional good guys by mistake! LOL

Seriously, the incidents that come to mind:
1) at least a dozens of inadvertent TFR / SFRA deviations by people who mean no harm
2) lost students
3) unfamiliar
4) mentaly unstable individual that crossed the Canadian border into the USA, refused to communicate, kept flying, came very close to being shot down, and was sentenced to 2 years in jail
5) grandma and grandpa going to visit the kids and innocently happened to be flying a well know drug-traficing route
6) and... (drumroll please)... the most famous detention of John and Martha King... (second drumroll please)... because the FAA reassigned a stolen aircraft N-number direct to Cessna!!

What is your point? We should do away with TFR's? Nobody ever flew an airplane into the World Trade Center until they flew 2 airplanes into the World Trade Center. I have no problems with the TFR system or any of the other measures they have taken. It doesn't seem to interfere with anything I try to do or any of my "freedoms."

I don't think that they should do away with TFR's, but rather make them more realistic with industry input.

I am also pretty sure that there were regulations in place against hijacking aircraft and flying them into buildings when that happened.

I guess since it doesn't effect you that things don't need changed, but what if you were located someplace where he made frequent visits?

[MovingOn]

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[MrMorden]

What is your point? We should do away with TFR's? Nobody ever flew an airplane into the World Trade Center until they flew 2 airplanes into the World Trade Center. I have no problems with the TFR system or any of the other measures they have taken. It doesn't seem to interfere with anything I try to do or any of my "freedoms."

Why does it always go instantly to "oh, so you want to do away with all the regulations/airspace restrictions/taxes!"...???

There is something called proportionality, where a response is proportional to the actual threat. What some of us argue is that the post-9/11 response is nowhere near the ballpark of proportional to the threats posed by small GA airplanes. You can argue the other way if you want, but it's still a valid debate.

Trying to cow opposing viewpoints into submission by immediately jumping to the conclusion that anybody who wants to make any change whatsoever to the national airspace system is an agent of total anarchy does nothing for the discussion.

[MovingOn]

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[designrs]

Why does it always go instantly to "oh, so you want to do away with all the regulations/airspace restrictions/taxes!"...???

There is something called proportionality, where a response is proportional to the actual threat.

^--- THIS!!! Proportional response to threat!
We live in a culture where if people whine loudly enough (about whatever real or unreal nauseating issue) and the media bites into it and sensationalizes it, then EVERYONE gets grossly and disproportionally regulated.

[MovingOn]

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[Merlinspop]

If you set aside VIP TFRs, most of the rest are for fires and other situations where safety of air assets dealing with the situation on the ground is the primary purpose of the TFR. They are usually very reasonable in size and serve their purpose well. Other TFRs are in place to keep the curious, nosy and sensational (news choppers) away (JFK Jr's burial at sea comes to mind, celebrity events). These are also reasonable.

Before 9/11, VIP TFRs were fairly small and were as much for noise abatement and prevention of risk posed by swarming news choppers and curious pilots as for the direct safety of the VIP, even the POTUS. Again, reasonable, IMO.

Time and again, crashes by small GA aircraft into buildings show that they are pretty crappy weapons. See the Cory Lidle crash, the kid who crashed a Cessna into a high rise in Tampa, the drunk who crashed a 152 into the White House, even the dude in Austin who crashed into the IRS building. Then see the OKC bombing and the first World Trade Center attack. Even as the delivery method of an explosive device (clean or 'dirty'), a WV bug can probably carry a bigger device than most GA planes. A panel truck (U-Haul) can haul far more.

I'm not saying they should do away with TFRs. I am suggesting, as already said, that some TFRs are bigger than they should be, given the threat. Some exist for no good reason. Why, for example, are there TFRs over the two Disney parks but not over all the other theme parks in the country? A "request" to avoid them would suffice, no?

Evacuating several buildings in DC yesterday because some yutz flew within 30 miles is a bit of overkill, but sure makes the security apparatus look like they're on top of things.

[MovingOn]

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