CTLS down in Greenville, TX

[roger lee]

If you have never shut down your engine you lose the mental adrenalin side of the practice. Idle only is too comforting because you know you have throttle and it's the same way you always land. You would be shocked at how people react when you turn an engine off in flight. I have seen CFI's just go bananas with panic. If you are too uncomfortable then get someone to go with you that feels okay with their skills. Engine off landings are quite easy.

This is why police and fireman abandoned the ways they practiced years ago for more realistic scenarios. Fear can drive normal thought out the window and make the most verbose non functional and dangerous to themselves and others. If you don't feel your landing skills are up to power off landings then they aren't up to par to start with. Sometimes you have to take that leap of faith in yourself.

The military services and public safety now practice like they play. The more realistic the better. Is there risk, sure, but it will be far greater without real practice.

[MovingOn]

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[ct4me]

'Can't agree entirely... I wouldn't compare setting yourself on fire, which is *guaranteed* to have a bad outcome, with shutting down an engine which has a low percentage chance of bad outcome. I have not done a full, engine-off, landing... but intend to when I'm around a dry lakebed sometime, with landing opportunities in all directions.

[MovingOn]

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[roger lee]

"And, flying airplanes is not the place to exhibit or demonstrate a macho attitude."

It has nothing to do with macho attitudes. It has everything to do with practice like you play. Why aren't you after all the glider pilots? They do this every day. We aren't any different. Are you not a pilot. I've been doing this since 1980 and haven't dinged a plane yet. I have no issues if the engine quits because I practiced like I played. It now becomes a little more common place and you look for a landing spot and land and totally calm.
Doing practice at idle I can say without pause is a completely different mind set.
As a skydiver why jump out of a perfectly good running aircraft. There are many that would think you're totally crazy and think it's the most dangerous thing in the world and people die. So why did you do that? I've done that too.
If you get used to doing things they may well be within your comfort envelope, but maybe not the next guy's. This doesn't sound like it's something you would care to do.

Get a good CFI to go with you. No one said you had to do it alone. Go get some glider training any thing is better than nothing.
Landing with an idled engine is absolutely not the same as with an engine off.

The answer to; did a CFI ever shut my engine off, the answer is yes and we landed.

After 30 years in the fire department (retired now) (glad you brought up the fire part ) I always had guys who said they could or would do things. So we trained as we played. I would have them jump out of a 4 story building to an airbag. Many talked a good game, but the last step didn't happen. Same with repelling off a 10 story building, they couldn't get over the edge because they were too fear stricken. Trapped in a metal hot box with the only a fire hose for protection that if used wrong would burn you. Fighting our fire breathing dragon at 6.5 million BTUs. Only the guys hose stream next to you keeps you from getting severely burnt. Now that's a rush. Throwing yourself out a window and grabbing a ladder with you hands and sliding the rails down in full gear and pack. Clear a room with 4 guys in seconds. Being enclosed in a level "A" HazMat or acid suit with an airpack in hot weather. Only a few non claustrophobic guys do well here. Many say they can do it until fear and panic take over. You can't get out quick or without help.
I spent 30 years running into bad situations when everyone else was running away.

These may not be normal for most, but it was an every day training session for me and other fire fighters around the world. They all think it's normal and fun.

p.s.
I have had my arm on fire, no big deal just calmly put it out. So setting yourself on fire was close to applicable, but I can't take credit for lighting it.
The drag car was more dangerous than landing like a glider pilot without the engine, but you did it anyway. Why?
Been on the drag strip too, but on a motorcycle and at the same speeds. (around 160 mph) Boy that takes me back to the early 1970's. You could go bait and feed sharks with me off some of the islands. One of my old product videos.
http://www.airlinebyjsink.com/hookah-di ... -line.aspx
That is out of many peoples comfort zone too. Is it more dangerous than watching TV. Sure, but a calculated risk and lots of fun, but second nature for those who do such things.


When I flew helicopters I thought my first auto rotation with my CFI was crazy because he thought it was fun. I thought he was whacked. After a couple of months of practice auto rotations were just that, fun.

All these things can be overcome. Train, train, train like you play. Once you train the fear will subside.

Glider pilots do it every day. Aren't you as good a pilot at landing as they are?
(just a point to consider)
If on final with more than enough altitude and a nice long runway (shut the engine down) you're saying you couldn't land without the engine every time? I bet you could.
I think many that doubt themselves could land without incident. Land it like yoo do any other day. They just lack confidence and repetitious training to make it more natural.

It's all in what you are used to. What is scary or dangerous for one is another's fun.

My point in bringing all these up is what you consider too dangerous to consider is just another's fun that they do fairly regular.

Just another glider pilot coming in for a landing.
I was a thrill junkie when I was a little younger, but it goes to show when done properly with training even dangerous things can be done reasonably safely.

You can tell I'm bored if I type this much. LOL

[MovingOn]

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[dstclair]

If on final with more than enough altitude and a nice long runway (shut the engine down) you're saying you couldn't land without the engine every time? I bet you could.

I've done this exactly once in my Sting when my highly experienced friend (in this type aircraft and others) pulled power on final. Absolutely not a big deal and we landed without event on a very long and wide runway. I also don't think I learned significantly more than just doing a power-off (idle) approach and landing. Sure, our 1800rpm idle generates thrust so the glide ratio is a bit different but I don't believe that difference is worth the risks of shutting an engine down. But that's just me.....

[MovingOn]

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[roger lee]

I'm not influencing you. You already made up your mind. I'm just stating training scenario that some may like to explore to become a better prepared pilot of an unexpected engine failure. Many pilots that should have made a nice landing and had plenty of room have made many a nasty mistake from lack of training and being in panic mode. Who do you think is more likely to make a major mistake, the guy that never trains for this and the guy that is comfortable and calm? When panic sets in we all make errors we wouldn't normally make. Panic and indecision kill. Well trained personal don't allow panic to overwhelm them because they have trained to that standard and now the training takes over instead of panic.

I have checked insurance. It falls under training and isn't an issue. A moving incident is covered. As far as the trees it isn't on me. It would be an issue in your landing abilities. I wasn't flying. I don't force anyone. You can train or not train as you wish. No one makes you do anything, you do everything on your on accord. Why would anyone land in a tree if on a final as if you were on the same approach with the engine running.
This would qualify for a Forrest Gump move; Stupid is as stupid does. If your that far off on your landing techniques on a final then more CFI time is warranted under just normal operations. This would mean you aren't ready for flying emergencies which you should have trained for.


We all have our boundaries and comfort zones and likes and dislikes.

Why not grab someone that is comfortable with these and try a few. I would bet you'll find them different mentally different to say the least, but your skills should remain the same. I want to train for this so I can save my wife or passenger from injuries or death.

I was terrified to do auto rotations in a helicopter on my own at first because a screw up might mean dead, but you have to do them and after 40-50 or so it was a piece of cake. After a 100 it was even more fun and with a calm demeanor.

What difference do spoilers make, you have flaps. Landing is landing. You drive a car now days and you drove a dragster. You managed both. One isn't like the other.

We always carry an argument or debate to where it makes sense to us as an individual, but may not be where it really needs to go.

Train, learn and feel confident you can do what ever needs to be done in an emergency with a calm thought process or don't.

I love this. This is good stuff to debate and scrutinize.

[MovingOn]

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[N918KT]

I am wondering about this debate on if once you purposely shut the engine off, and there is a hazard on the runway which forces you to do a go around, is there a chance that once the engine is shut off on purpose you cannot restart the engine in flight, in which an actual engine failure occurs?

[FastEddieB]

This has happened.

Mixture cables and fuel valve handles braking or getting stuck. That sort of thing.

Again, shutting down the engine in a single engine plane for training purposes is not something I've ever done. It's my personal risk/reward calculation. Others clearly make the calculation differently.

[MovingOn]

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[FastEddieB]

Could not at first glance find anything in the FAA material I have handy that specifically precludes intentionally killing the engine for practice.

Airplane Flying Handbook does say this:

"EMERGENCY APPROACHES AND LANDINGS (SIMULATED)
From time to time on dual flights, the instructor should give simulated emergency landings by retarding the throttle and calling “simulated emergency landing.” The objective of these simulated emergency landings is to develop the pilot’s accuracy, judgment, planning, procedures, and confidence when little or no power is available...

During all simulated emergency landings, the engine should be kept warm and cleared. During a simulated emergency landing, either the instructor or the student should have complete control of the throttle. There should be no doubt as to who has control since many near accidents have occurred from such misunderstandings."


Bolded mine.

[MovingOn]

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