Power out on take off. Either (a) land forward or (b) die

jnmeade · Post by **jnmeade** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:10 pm

As I recall, I did not wait. I've heard 4 seconds, not 5. No matter on that. That is the reason one has to brief the departure. One has to already have decided on the immediate actions to be taken in the event of an engine out.
I'm not saying one should not use the time delay if one thinks it is more realistic for them. I appreciate that the purpose is to recognize and accept and act on information that the engine is out.
Back in the day, we would train that if we were ambushed, we took action without thinking, immediately. It was the way to stay alive. I look at the departure issue the same way. For my own part, I want to take action as soon as the problem is manifested. I think the critical action is to get the nose down and establish best glide speed (assuming one is high enough that one is not entering the landing phase immediately).
I don't disagree that 700 would be a good altitude if that is what you are comfortable with. I'm glad to hear you have tested it and found a procedure you are comfortable with.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:21 pm

jnmeade wrote:The engine was a Rotax, apparently a radial, in a KitFox.

One version of the KitFox uses a standard Rotax 912 boxer engine, but has a cowling designed to make it look like a radial engine installation. I suspect that is the case here.

theskunk · Post by **theskunk** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:00 am

Here's a fun question to ask:

After you determine what atltitude you need, at a minimum, could there be a runway length around where you could actually pitch down, dump in full flaps, and land safely on the same runway? We all joke that a pilot of an LSA can stay current on one runway without a pattern circuit (i can probably do 4 take offs and landings to a full stop on a 10k runway... perhaps more!).

Has anybody thought of simply doing an RTO and landing straight ahead... on the same runway? I know I've bounced a plane hard enough on landing to have effectively taken off and landed on the same strip before...

jnmeade · Post by **jnmeade** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:50 am

theskunk wrote:After you determine what atltitude you need, at a minimum, could there be a runway length around where you could actually pitch down, dump in full flaps, and land safely on the same runway?

That's a good question and one I might try one of these days. It might also be useful to consider what our objective is, and we all know that that can be important.

Is our objective to get the plane back down in any landing we can walk away from or is it to try to "save" the plane so it is not damaged by the landing? When do we say "the insurance company owns this plane" and we just try to avoid injury?

That brings in the question of when we should fire the BRS? What are it's characteristics? Surely, that is an entirely different thread and one I'd be interested in.

To me, the question of "can I save the plane" is the insidious factor in this equation. It has the ability to delay our and complicate our decision making so that we lose time,altitude and options before we can accomplish our goal.

dstclair · Post by **dstclair** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:26 am

I have a simple rule: the insurance company owns the plane when the engine quits. Therefore any action after an engine failure is to ensure the safety of the occupants.

Jim Stewart · Post by **Jim Stewart** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:41 am

theskunk wrote:
Has anybody thought of simply doing an RTO and landing straight ahead... on the same runway? I know I've bounced a plane hard enough on landing to have effectively taken off and landed on the same strip before...

Been there, done that.

6000 foot runway, me a student about a week from my pp checkride. We took off and the instructor pulled the power at 100' and said "put it back down". It was the busiest 20 seconds I've ever had in an airplane.

jnmeade · Post by **jnmeade** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:19 am

dstclair wrote:I have a simple rule: the insurance company owns the plane when the engine quits. Therefore any action after an engine failure is to ensure the safety of the occupants.

And, of course, the school kids in the playground below?
I agree with your basic premise. I'm only illustrating that the decision making doesn't stop when the insurance company takes title in our mind. Do we pull the BRS or do we fly the plane all the way to the scene of the accident or is it situational dependent?
It would seem to me that lots of practice would help one sort out what can and can't be reasonably done. That implies to me that a lot of simulator time would be useful, as we can push the limits without pushing our luck.
What do you think?
Are there any pretty good LSA simulators?

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:39 am

dstclair wrote:I have a simple rule: the insurance company owns the plane when the engine quits.

Or even when the engine is running. The minute you strap in, you're just renting the plane from the insurer. Your job as PIC is to preserve life and limb, not to save the insurance company money!

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:41 am

jnmeade wrote:Are there any pretty good LSA simulators?

Paul Hamilton would be the guy to ask, as he's a big proponent of simulator training. You might wish to search for other threads to which he's posted. Paul, are you lurking here?

theskunk · Post by **theskunk** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:53 am

jnmeade wrote: Are there any pretty good LSA simulators?

I personally think so -- depending on what I want to "fly" that day, I have both FSX and x-plane.

FSX - Great for simulating instruments, and visual accuracy on the panel.

X-Plane - Great for simulating physics, and getting the 'more rudder' on take off correct depending on the plane model. Also simulates weather better than anything else.

I've done the simulation on both of these and connect it to pilotedge.net so that not only can i declare an emergency and try to cope with it, I can also do the 'communicate' aspect of it, to a real-live ATC person with other aircraft in the area that have to put up with what I just did. If you'd like more information on that, there is a post over int he 'training' forum that has a guy registered by the name of Keith Smith, and he can tell you all about it!

Keith Smith · Post by **Keith Smith** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:12 pm

Here's a post in another forum containing a YT video of someone flying a Skycatcher with a TrackIR in FSX (allowing his head movements to move the camera in the sim):

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/t ... ed_on.html

This was flown on PilotEdge (that's where the ATC is coming from).

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:33 pm

https://wiki.umn.edu/pub/CirrusWing/Cir ... fd_poh.pdf
At an altitude of 330ft no attempt to restart the engine should be made.
Below an altitude of 820 ft, no attempt the runway should be made.
Below an altitude of 165ft any turns are to be avoided because of incrased loss of in altitude and/or control.

jnmeade · Post by **jnmeade** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:20 pm

ussyorktown wrote:https://wiki.umn.edu/pub/CirrusWing/Cir ... fd_poh.pdf
At an altitude of 330ft no attempt to restart the engine should be made.
Below an altitude of 820 ft, no attempt the runway should be made.
Below an altitude of 165ft any turns are to be avoided because of incrased loss of in altitude and/or control.

Those are for the LS. The SW doesn't have such numbers.
Obviously, everyone should take the LS numbers very seriously if flying that aircraft.
It's probably useful for us SW pilots to consider if the numbers are helpful to us. In any event, I will train to see what my plane will do so that in the event of an emergency when I need to know all the feasible alternatives, I have some experience to bring to bear. In other words, I respect the numbers but I am not a slave to them.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:17 pm

(Moving this thread to the Safety Corner forum. Thanks, all, for your participation.)

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:10 pm

Some new Wierd intelligence on all this!
I met up with a Rotax mechanic and he said "How did you hear about me?" Mechanic hangs out at Lynardt in Oregon.
I said, "I've got the guys card right here. He said that you are a good Rotax man."
Mechanic looks at the card and shook his head, "did you know this is the pilot that went down at Pearson-where the passenger died?"
I feel the heebee geebees! (I threw his card away as it might have bad hooba hooba!)
I say, "looks like he tried to go around but stall and spinned into the earth."
Mechanic, "I think that he was trying to restart the engine. He should have been aviating, landing the plane. Just off the runway is an industrial area with a lot of empty parking lots."
Then he said this, "I visiting him and his plane once. He was working on it himself. He put the engine back together but he had a couple/three screws that he didn't put back in."
I said, "bad enough to crash but to kill an innocent passenger who had trusted his life to you..."