Fear and Loathing in Base to Final

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Jack Tyler
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Post by Jack Tyler »

Fast Eddie:

Interesting that you recently had a loss-of-control 'spin on base to final' accident involving a Cirrus in nearby GA, as we had the same thing happen a few weeks ago in Melbourne, FL.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 04cb27d3da

COPA seems to think it's stemmed the high (fatal) accident rate of Cirrus a/c - http://www.cirruspilots.org/blogs/pull_ ... dents.aspx - but these events suggest otherwise.

FE, I'm not really sure which point you mean to emphasize:
-- "It appears that many of the posts either directly or indirectly imply excessive bank as a factor in stall/spin accidents.... I think this is to focus on the wrong thing."
but then followed by:
-- "If I’m evaluating a pilot and I routinely see him banking to 45º or so in the pattern, he’ll earn a mild comment from me, something like, “You know, that’s a bit much on the bank there..."

-- "Get rid of the idea that banking in and of itself holds any danger - bank as much as is needed for the turn you need to make. "
but then followed by:
-- "If the turn needed is too tight and would require too much bank, roll out, climb, advise and come back and try again."

Might a fair summation be that shallow banks don't insulate one from a stall/spin event, excessive banking increases that risk (if for no other reason, because its less tolerant of other, conflicting pilot inputs) while 'medium' bank angles are, in general, more consistent with best practices in flying the pattern? And isn't that pretty consistent with what's being taught?
Jack
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zaitcev
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Post by zaitcev »

Jack Tyler wrote:Might a fair summation be that shallow banks don't insulate one from a stall/spin event, excessive banking increases that risk (if for no other reason, because its less tolerant of other, conflicting pilot inputs) while 'medium' bank angles are, in general, more consistent with best practices in flying the pattern? And isn't that pretty consistent with what's being taught?
IMHO it's a fair summary. What is being thought is a different matter. My primary CFI focused on keeping the ball centered.

Note that many modern airplanes are tolerant of large skid values. I heard comments to that effect from Russian instructors, who moved from Yak-18 and Yak-52 to Cessnas and Tecnams after the fall of the iron curtain. Even a small amount of skid sends Yak-52 into a spin -- from which it recovers readily and with a small altitude loss, but it's a real spin nonetheless. Not so in modern trainers. It permits new pilots pick up any kind of good or bad rudder habits, depending which way CFI leans.

I think I never "helped" with the rudder and generally only used it to keep the airplane coordinated. I only started using rudder in turns after an old CFI taught me it. By that time I already watched the "Turn Smart" video.

Even so, I never bank more than 60 degrees in the pattern. Once I feel the G growing, I know it's time to give up the turn, primarily because of the danger of accelerated stall. Although I fly Remos, which is equipped with AoA indicator, I am not used to relying on it.
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FastEddieB
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Post by FastEddieB »

Jack Tyler wrote:Fast Eddie:

Interesting that you recently had a loss-of-control 'spin on base to final' accident involving a Cirrus in nearby GA, as we had the same thing happen a few weeks ago in Melbourne, FL.
That was the one I was referring to.

Might a fair summation be that shallow banks don't insulate one from a stall/spin event, excessive banking increases that risk (if for no other reason, because its less tolerant of other, conflicting pilot inputs) while 'medium' bank angles are, in general, more consistent with best practices in flying the pattern? And isn't that pretty consistent with what's being taught?
Good summation, and it should be generally consistent with what's being taught.

I guess my post was a tad out of context. In reaction to the Melbourne accident, some Cirrus pilots said they avoided flying patterns at all for fear of the base to final turn. Others said to fly wide patterns and to not ever bank more than, let's say, 20° in the pattern.

That's what I was responding to. Sorry if I wasn't clearer. Any fear of banking in the pattern can subconsciously lead to skidding turns and the Stick And Rudder scenario. As the thread title said, "Bank is not the enemy".
Fast Eddie B.
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FastEddieB
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Post by FastEddieB »

zaitcev wrote:
Even so, I never bank more than 60 degrees in the pattern.
60° is a LOT of bank in the pattern. Go slightly more and regs require a parachute for each occupant if a passenger is carried.

Limiting bank to a very low number is a poor idea. IMHO, even approaching 60° bank in the pattern is an equally bad idea, pretty much doing aerobatics at low altitude.

But That's Just Me!
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ussyorktown
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Low hours pilot back again-summary? Conclusion?

Post by ussyorktown »

So now I'm a bit confused.
by the way, I remember going from crosswind to downwind and suddenly feeling the plane going down to my left.

I recovered it after saying WTF!


I probably used the stick to get her level.
Maybe I was coming close to a stall and spin as I was probably at about 80 knots with a tight turn with 15 degrees of flaps.

So, what I am taking away from all this;
1. make longer sweeping turns,
2. keep my foot off the rudders unless the black ball tells me it is needed :oops:
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drseti
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Re: Low hours pilot back again-summary? Conclusion?

Post by drseti »

ussyorktown wrote:I recovered it after saying WTF!
But, you've got your priorities backward. Recover first, and then say WTF!

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stevenr
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Post by stevenr »

Try and relax. If you are flying 60 kts, and making gentle turns, you won't stall. You should be looking out the window, and occasionally glancing at the airspeed.
ussyorktown
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Post by ussyorktown »

I got so freaked out by this smokin' thread that I went up and flew around the patch yesterday.
I installed (glued on) a new black ball to the top of the console because during training it was too far to look down at the Flight Design ball which is closer to my knee.
So, I compared the two of them when in turns and the bottom ball (the FD ball) moved much less than the top ball, near top of console.
I think I also have a tendency to press down on left rudden when feeling stress. Would that cause the ball to go the right when I'm in slow flight in pattern and turning left?
The thing I like about flying-you never learn it all and you can always improve on what you did yesterday. Keeps it fresh to always have a challenge each flight.
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Post by stevenr »

Yes. You are likely using too much left rudder.
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designrs
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Post by designrs »

ussyorktown wrote:I got so freaked out by this smokin' thread that I went up and flew around the patch yesterday.
No matter what your experience, certificate or rating, if there is something about flying your plane that is really causing you "fear and loathing" or causing you to "freak out" perhaps you owe it to yourself to go find the best and most truly experienced instructor IN THAT SAME AIRCRAFT and practice what's bugging you way beyond your normal limits and comfort zone with the instructor. Then when you fly solo in normal situations you will be a lot more comfortable... and experienced (just don't get over confident!)

:D
ussyorktown
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Post by ussyorktown »

Freaked out by the many opinions. I think my problem is unconsiously pushing the left rudder when it is az pucker time when decending in the pattern AND looking at the ball which is near the top of the cowling instead o the one the Good Lord FD gave me.
Nice weather tomorrow so I'll try it again in the pattern and watch my left foot.
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drseti
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Post by drseti »

ussyorktown wrote:Nice weather tomorrow so I'll try it again in the pattern and watch my left foot.
Here's an idea. By all means, go fly tomorrow. But not in the pattern (at least, not initially). Go out to the practice area, climb to 3000 AGL or so, and set up some 6o knot power-off glides (to simulate the traffic pattern, downwind abeam the numbers). Then make a gliding 90 deg turn, 30 degrees of bank, simulating turning base. Then another 90 deg turn, 30 degrees of bank, simulating turning final. Concentrate not on the ball (mechanical or electronic), but rather on your butt cheeks sliding across the seat (or even better, not sliding, if you do coordinated turns). Get the feel of what a good turn feels like, without sliding or skidding (you can check the ball to verify, but you're trying to learn the proper kinesthetic sense here). Do this to both the right and the left, as at some airports you'll have to fly right traffic, and it definitely feels different gliding and turning in the opposite direction.

Once you know what it's supposed to feel like, you'll be able to fly your pattern using the inclinometer the Chief Designer gave you, instead of relying on the one from Flight Design.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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FastEddieB
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Re: Low hours pilot back again-summary? Conclusion?

Post by FastEddieB »

ussyorktown wrote:So now I'm a bit confused.
by the way, I remember going from crosswind to downwind and suddenly feeling the plane going down to my left.

I recovered it after saying WTF!
So now I'M a bit confused!

Remember, with any constant wind there is NO wind effect on an airplane in flight. Any effect you "felt" from crosswind to downwind was a purely visual effect caused by changes in your path over the ground. No reason the wind would ever cause your plane to go down, again wind shear notwithstanding.

Wind shear is another topic, but lets be very clear on the "no wind effect on an airplane in flight" concept!
Fast Eddie B.
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ussyorktown
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Post by ussyorktown »

I took up the ctsw on a nice sunny day yesterday.
I got to the practice area and got to 3k feet.
then I got it down to 61 knots at 30 degrees flaps and did r turns and left turns till i got down to 2k feet.
Climbed back up to 3k and did it again and again.
Great confidence builder as there are no trees or buildings to distract you. I was in a 500 feet descent all the time-just like in the pattern.
Feel more confident now.
On the way back I took the river and flew 500 feet above it and did 15 degrees flaos and 61knots. Did the ball thing at every turn along with the stick. Good practice.
Thank you gentlemen.
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