Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

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spaulus
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby spaulus » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:06 am

Thank you all for the replies,
I will assume , I can fly to another field, touch and go, and return, with my backseater.
And that is a dual , 'Sport Pilot' cross-country, training flight.
I just have to log at least 2.0 hours or more of those.
S.F.P.

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joey4420
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby joey4420 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:59 am

Unless I am mistaken I thought it had to be a full stop not a touch and go?
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3Dreaming
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:17 pm

spaulus wrote:Thank you all for the replies,
I will assume , I can fly to another field, touch and go, and return, with my backseater.
And that is a dual , 'Sport Pilot' cross-country, training flight.
I just have to log at least 2.0 hours or more of those.
S.F.P.


I would make the airport of choice at least 25nm from your original point of departure, just so there is no mis understanding about whether it counts.

spaulus
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby spaulus » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:29 pm

OK. Thank you again.
I will go to (KEFD), Galveston, TX, Class D, with my instructor.
Make a full stop and return. That is 26 NM , one way.
Plus I will get endorsed for 'Controlled' airspace training.
S.P.

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drseti
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby drseti » Thu May 03, 2018 9:07 pm

3Dreaming wrote:. So the answer to the question is, no there is no mileage requirement for the 2 hours cross country instruction needed for sport pilot.


Actually, Tom, there is. An FAR (can't cite it offhand, but I know where to look it up if anybody needs it) says that the SP qualifying XC training flights must include landings at another airport not less than 25 nm distant from the point of departure. And (this is often overlooked), XC flights cannot be logged unless the student has received the required pre-XC training.

I have an EAA webinar on the topic tentatively scheduled for 17 July 2018.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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3Dreaming
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri May 04, 2018 9:31 am

drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:. So the answer to the question is, no there is no mileage requirement for the 2 hours cross country instruction needed for sport pilot.


Actually, Tom, there is. An FAR (can't cite it offhand, but I know where to look it up if anybody needs it) says that the SP qualifying XC training flights must include landings at another airport not less than 25 nm distant from the point of departure. And (this is often overlooked), XC flights cannot be logged unless the student has received the required pre-XC training.

I have an EAA webinar on the topic tentatively scheduled for 17 July 2018.


Paul, the CFR is 61.1 for defining cross country flights. You will notice that a few post up I stated that I would suggest complying with the 25 mile requirement just to be on the safe side. The regulations call for 2 hours of cross country flight training, the question then becomes can you do cross country flight training without actually making a cross country flight.

With private pilot students I have them plan a flight to another airport that is not quite 50 NM away. We depart as if making a cross country flight finding checkpoints, checking groundspeed, ect. As soon as the have the airport in sight I tell them the runway is closed, and have them divert to a VOR. Once the VOR is in sight I have them put on a view limiting device and walk them through returning to our airport under the hood. I consider this to be cross country flight training, even though it was not a cross country flight. There are places in the regulations where they do specify that the training must include a cross country flight, and not just training.

Just because this is my opinion doesn't mean I have put it to the test. I always include enough training that includes stops at the appropriate distances to meat the requirements.

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drseti
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby drseti » Fri May 04, 2018 9:38 am

3Dreaming wrote:Just because this is my opinion doesn't mean I have put it to the test. I always include enough training that includes stops at the appropriate distances to meet the requirements.


And that, sir, is what makes you a good instructor. :D
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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drseti
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby drseti » Fri May 04, 2018 12:00 pm

spaulus wrote:Plus I will get endorsed for 'Controlled' airspace training.
S.P.


Yes, but remember that the airspace endorsement, per FAR 61.325, requires 3 TOLs to a full stop, each involving a flight in the traffic pattern, and radio comm with the control tower.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
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HAPPYDAN
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby HAPPYDAN » Fri May 04, 2018 12:05 pm

I think the minimum requirement could be satisfied as simply as 1. Take Off. 2. Fly to another airport 37.5 nm away. 3. Land, full stop. 4. Take Off. 5. Fly back to origin. 6. Land, full Stop. So if your LSA can average 100kts ground speed, you're in the air about 45 minutes, add 15 minutes for, taxi, ascent, descent, pattern and round up to 1 hour. I was told, and I still am not convinced, that the "2 hours of cross country flight training" MUST be conducted during flight. Heck, it took that long just to prepare that crazy flight log and weather briefing! Still, we did it. Fortunately, once underway, the flight log became advisory only, and navigator Garmin 300 did the job.

3Dreaming
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri May 04, 2018 12:30 pm

HAPPYDAN wrote:I think the minimum requirement could be satisfied as simply as 1. Take Off. 2. Fly to another airport 37.5 nm away. 3. Land, full stop. 4. Take Off. 5. Fly back to origin. 6. Land, full Stop. So if your LSA can average 100kts ground speed, you're in the air about 45 minutes, add 15 minutes for, taxi, ascent, descent, pattern and round up to 1 hour. I was told, and I still am not convinced, that the "2 hours of cross country flight training" MUST be conducted during flight. Heck, it took that long just to prepare that crazy flight log and weather briefing! Still, we did it. Fortunately, once underway, the flight log became advisory only, and navigator Garmin 300 did the job.


Your description of the flight is what is needed for the solo cross country. The 2 hours of training must be in the airplane for the purpose of flight. the time you spent on the ground is ground training no flight training. You are required to have both ground and flight training to get a pilot certificate other than a student pilot certificate.

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drseti
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby drseti » Fri May 04, 2018 12:34 pm

Also, don't forget that to fly solo XC in an LSA with Vh>87 kts, one must have logged flight training for flight solely by reference to flight instruments (duration of which is not specified).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
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TimTaylor
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby TimTaylor » Fri May 04, 2018 12:35 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
HAPPYDAN wrote:I think the minimum requirement could be satisfied as simply as 1. Take Off. 2. Fly to another airport 37.5 nm away. 3. Land, full stop. 4. Take Off. 5. Fly back to origin. 6. Land, full Stop. So if your LSA can average 100kts ground speed, you're in the air about 45 minutes, add 15 minutes for, taxi, ascent, descent, pattern and round up to 1 hour. I was told, and I still am not convinced, that the "2 hours of cross country flight training" MUST be conducted during flight. Heck, it took that long just to prepare that crazy flight log and weather briefing! Still, we did it. Fortunately, once underway, the flight log became advisory only, and navigator Garmin 300 did the job.


Your description of the flight is what is needed for the solo cross country. The 2 hours of training must be in the airplane for the purpose of flight. the time you spent on the ground is ground training no flight training. You are required to have both ground and flight training to get a pilot certificate other than a student pilot certificate.

Correct. There is no reason for confusion about this. The FAR's are clear in regards to "flight" training requirements. Don't go by "what your were told." Read the FAR's.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

Sling 2 Pilot
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby Sling 2 Pilot » Fri May 04, 2018 3:00 pm

When I did my PPL cross country’s, I landed and had to have my log signed. Usually by a line guy or someone at the FBO. No signature, it didn’t happen. :roll:

3Dreaming
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri May 04, 2018 3:06 pm

Sling 2 Pilot wrote:When I did my PPL cross country’s, I landed and had to have my log signed. Usually by a line guy or someone at the FBO. No signature, it didn’t happen. :roll:


There is no requirement to have your logbook signed. It was just a means to let your instructor know you didn't just go out and fly around in circles instead of doing the cross country. There was an instructor at another airport who would have the students come in and ask the name of our dog.
Now days I can look at the track on the GPS, or I have them snap a picture of the airport from the ground with their cell phone.

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Jim Hardin
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Re: Dual xcountry 2 hour requirement, how far ?

Postby Jim Hardin » Sun May 06, 2018 6:48 am

3Dreaming wrote:
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:When I did my PPL cross country’s, I landed and had to have my log signed. Usually by a line guy or someone at the FBO. No signature, it didn’t happen. :roll:


There is no requirement to have your logbook signed. It was just a means to let your instructor know you didn't just go out and fly around in circles instead of doing the cross country. There was an instructor at another airport who would have the students come in and ask the name of our dog.
Now days I can look at the track on the GPS, or I have them snap a picture of the airport from the ground with their cell phone.


You throw the keys to a $100,000+ airplane to a student so he can fly away by himself and yet don't trust them to tell you the truth about where they landed???

I have NEVER told my students to get a signature to prove they were there and to have any idiot who asks them for proof to call me!


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