Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

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lindolo2
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Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby lindolo2 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:03 pm

I'm a sport pilot and have a controlled airpace endorsement. I want to fly my LSA into Saint Thomas Island which is Class C. My plane has a transponder and all requirements. The local DPE told us we can not fly into that airport since it is an airport of entry with customs and that we needed at least a Private License with ICAO to fly there. Is it true we can not fly there? It is USA territory. I have looked on the FAR but can't find an answer to this question pertaining to sport pilots.

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drseti
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby drseti » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:47 pm

The FARs specifically list 12 Class B airports from which Sport Pilots are excluded. Other than those, a Sport Pilot with the proper endorsements may legally fly into any other public use airport in the US, as long as it can be done day vfr, and no TFRs are in effect.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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3Dreaming
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:37 pm

I think a call to the FAA Light Sport division is in order to see if there may be something else is in play.

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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby SportPilot » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:00 am

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Last edited by SportPilot on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bottleworks
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby bottleworks » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:31 am

(I'm gone. Everything deleted! Can't stand the ignorant data spread here).
Last edited by bottleworks on Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrMorden
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby MrMorden » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:51 am

bottleworks wrote:
drseti wrote:The FARs specifically list 12 Class B airports from which Sport Pilots are excluded. Other than those, a Sport Pilot with the proper endorsements may legally fly into any other public use airport in the US, as long as it can be done day vfr, and no TFRs are in effect.


Here is the copy & paste:
No person may take off or land a civil aircraft at the following primary airports within Class B airspace unless the pilot-in-command holds at least a private pilot certificate:

(a) Andrews Air Force Base, MD

(b) Atlanta Hartsfield Airport, GA

(c) Boston Logan Airport, MA

(d) Chicago O'Hare Intl. Airport, IL

(e) Dallas/Fort Worth Intl. Airport, TX

(f) Los Angeles Intl. Airport, CA

(g) Miami Intl. Airport, FL

(h) Newark Intl. Airport, NJ

(i) New York Kennedy Airport, NY

(j) New York La Guardia Airport, NY

(k) Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, DC

(l) San Francisco Intl. Airport, CA

3. No person may take off or land a civil aircraft at an airport within Class B airspace or operate a civil aircraft within Class B airspace unless:

(a) The pilot-in-command holds at least a private pilot certificate; or

(b) The aircraft is operated by a student pilot or recreational pilot who seeks private pilot certification and has met the requirements of 14 CFR Section 61.95.

From : https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0302.html#aim0302.html.2


Huh?!? Is part 3 new in that regulation? There has previously been no restriction on a Sport Pilot flying within Class B airspace, only on operations (takeoffs and landings) at the 12 listed airports.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

Jack Tyler
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby Jack Tyler » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:37 am

Andy, I was startled to see that total Class B exclusion as well. Certainly not the local practice I see in Orlando's and Tampa's Class B's.

lindolo2, my suggestion is not to call 'the FAA' or the Sport Pilot division because those folks are not going to be familiar with the local scene and also not the ones who would violate you, if in fact you face a problem when landing at Cyril B. King. I would call St. Thomas TRACON to get the local FAA's view on SP flights into their airport. I didn't quickly find that phone # but alternatively you could call the Airport Manager and get that number and/or make your inquiry to see what they say. 340-774-5100.

I know it's a U.S. territory and the FAA a federal agency...but things have a way of being different down in the islands. I'd check it out.
Jack
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FastEddieB
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:09 am

Question:

I am the holder of a Commercial Certificate, but operating under Light Sport regs sans medical.

Given the language of the reg, it appears I "hold" an appropriate certificate (at least a private pilot certificate), since they are issued without expiration dates.

The way I read this, I could if I wished, land at any one of the airports on that list.

Not that I really wish to. I think on that list I've only landed at MIA.

Anyone read this differently or have a ruling that contradicts that?
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
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FastEddieB
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:11 am

Jack Tyler wrote:I know it's a U.S. territory and the FAA a federal agency...but things have a way of being different down in the islands. I'd check it out.


Years ago I flew in a Cirrus from Puerto Rico to S FL. Since the flight originated in a US territory, there was no need to land at a U.S. Port of Entry or to clear customs.

Just a data point that may or may not be relevant.
Fast Eddie B.
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3Dreaming
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:18 am

MrMorden wrote:
bottleworks wrote:
drseti wrote:The FARs specifically list 12 Class B airports from which Sport Pilots are excluded. Other than those, a Sport Pilot with the proper endorsements may legally fly into any other public use airport in the US, as long as it can be done day vfr, and no TFRs are in effect.


Here is the copy & paste:
No person may take off or land a civil aircraft at the following primary airports within Class B airspace unless the pilot-in-command holds at least a private pilot certificate:

(a) Andrews Air Force Base, MD

(b) Atlanta Hartsfield Airport, GA

(c) Boston Logan Airport, MA

(d) Chicago O'Hare Intl. Airport, IL

(e) Dallas/Fort Worth Intl. Airport, TX

(f) Los Angeles Intl. Airport, CA

(g) Miami Intl. Airport, FL

(h) Newark Intl. Airport, NJ

(i) New York Kennedy Airport, NY

(j) New York La Guardia Airport, NY

(k) Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, DC

(l) San Francisco Intl. Airport, CA

3. No person may take off or land a civil aircraft at an airport within Class B airspace or operate a civil aircraft within Class B airspace unless:

(a) The pilot-in-command holds at least a private pilot certificate; or

(b) The aircraft is operated by a student pilot or recreational pilot who seeks private pilot certification and has met the requirements of 14 CFR Section 61.95.

From : https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0302.html#aim0302.html.2


Huh?!? Is part 3 new in that regulation? There has previously been no restriction on a Sport Pilot flying within Class B airspace, only on operations (takeoffs and landings) at the 12 listed airports.


Andy go back and read it again. It says operations at the airport, which according to the FAA is take offs and landings. No restriction on flying in the airspace.

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drseti
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby drseti » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:20 am

Huh?!? Is part 3 new in that regulation? There has previously been no restriction on a Sport Pilot flying within Class B airspace, only on operations (takeoffs and landings) at the 12 listed airports.


First off, Andy, it's not a regulation. The quote is from the AIM. Unless somebody can show me an FAR that says that, it's not regulatory.
Second, I don't think it's new; it's old. This language probably predates the Sport Pilot rules. It was intended to keep Student Pilots out of Class B. I believe it just wasn't updated in the AIM in the past ten years.
If somebody finds this language in the FARs, please advise me.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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drseti
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby drseti » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:30 am

91.131 (b)(1)(iii) specifically allows Sport Pilots to operate in Class B, provided proper training and endorsements have been accomplished. I think this trumps the AIM.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
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MrMorden
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby MrMorden » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:42 am

drseti wrote:91.131 (b)(1)(iii) specifically allows Sport Pilots to operate in Class B, provided proper training and endorsements have been accomplished. I think this trumps the AIM.


Whew. I knew the language was in there, just could not remember where.

As for the AIM not being regulatory...care to test that theory by landing at Hartsfield...? :lol:
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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drseti
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby drseti » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:52 am

MrMorden wrote:As for the AIM not being regulatory...care to test that theory by landing at Hartsfield...? :lol:


I didn't say it wasn't binding, Andy, only that when the AIM disagrees with the FARs, I believe Regulations take precedence over Information.

As far as the Forbidden 12 are concerned, I have to agree with Eddie. Since he and I are still Commercial Pilots, I believe we could still fly into Hartsfield. That FAR talks about what license you hold; it doesn't mention medical certificates, or what privileges you are exercising.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

Flocker
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Re: Flying into a Class C airport of entry

Postby Flocker » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:56 am

MrMorden wrote:Huh?!? Is part 3 new in that regulation? There has previously been no restriction on a Sport Pilot flying within Class B airspace, only on operations (takeoffs and landings) at the 12 listed airports.


I would have been in big trouble last weekend... KATL

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Last edited by Flocker on Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.


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