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isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:08 pm
by busted
The subject says it all.... thanks

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:19 pm
by drseti
That all depends on what you mean by "certified." Unfortunately, that's not one of the words defined in the glossary in FAR 1.

Normally, the term "certified" refers to compliance with FAR parts 23 and 33. An LSA receives its "certification" under ASTM consensus standards, which are industry-driven, not regulatory. So, in the legal sense, they are not "certified."

Does that mean they don't comply with any standards? Of course not. It's just that those standards are established by engineers, not politicians. :wink:

The more important question is: under what kind of airworthiness certificate is a given aircraft operating? What we commonly call "certified" aircraft receive a Standard (white) airworthiness certificate. LSAs (as well as experimentals) receive a Special (pink) one.

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:02 am
by 3Dreaming
If you look at the definition of certified, then all aircraft the have been issued an airworthiness certificate are certified. In addition since standard category aircraft and SLSA aircraft are built to a standard makes them meet another part of the definition for certified. That being said in aviation speak the term certified normally goes along with standard category aircraft.

A little rant. One of my pet peeves is calling all standard category aircraft part 23. Part 23 is just the current certification standards used for standard category aircraft. There are many standard category aircraft that were certified under earlier certification standards. As an example the beloved Cessna 150 was certified under CAR part 3.

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:34 am
by drseti
3Dreaming wrote:If you look at the definition of certified,
But that's the whole problem, Tom. Check 14 CFR part 1. There is no official definition of "certified"!

A workable definition might be to include all aircraft produced under an FAA (or CAA) Type Certificate. Since experimentals and LSAs have no Type Certificate, that would seem to throw them into non-certified status. I don't think the issuance of an airworthiness certificate is an appropriate criterion, since every E-AB gets one, issued by the DAR.

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:09 am
by 3Dreaming
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:If you look at the definition of certified,
But that's the whole problem, Tom. Check 14 CFR part 1. There is no official definition of "certified"!

A workable definition might be to include all aircraft produced under an FAA (or CAA) Type Certificate. Since experimentals and LSAs have no Type Certificate, that would seem to throw them into non-certified status. I don't think the issuance of an airworthiness certificate is an appropriate criterion, since every E-AB gets one, issued by the DAR.
Just because there is no definition in 14 CFR part 1 doesn't mean that you can't go else where for a definition. For example there is no definition for multi engine aircraft, but that doesn't mean multi engine aircraft don't exist.

According to Webster's and others the issue of an airworthiness certificate does make it certified. I have heard many times over the years of an aircraft being certified in the experimental category.

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:46 am
by drseti
As far as the FARs (and the FAA, and lawyers) are concerned, the only definitions that count are the ones in Part 1. And an airworthiness certificate may bear the word "operating experimental" (or "operating Light Sport"), but never will it include the word "certified".

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:29 am
by 3Dreaming
drseti wrote:As far as the FARs (and the FAA, and lawyers) are concerned, the only definitions that count are the ones in Part 1. And an airworthiness certificate may bear the word "operating experimental" (or "operating Light Sport"), but never will it include the word "certified".
Paul, the attachment is from the back of an airworthiness certificate for an experimental amateur built aircraft. Notice in block "D" that it says the certificate certifies the aircraft.
airworthiness.pdf
(223.68 KiB) Downloaded 511 times

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:34 am
by CharlieTango
We should use the phrase 'type certified' to be more clear.

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:18 pm
by 3Dreaming
CharlieTango wrote:We should use the phrase 'type certified' to be more clear.
I think standard category would be a better choice.

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:49 pm
by FastEddieB
To add to the confusion is the sometimes used "certificated"'!

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:24 am
by MrMorden
FastEddieB wrote:To add to the confusion is the sometimes used "certificated"'!
I think that's actually the correct usage. "Certified" means to make certain, and usually refers to a person's credentials (i.e. Certified Public Accountant), while "certificated" refers to something possessing an official document (like an airworthiness certificate). In common use they are largely interchangeable, but I agree with the author of the link below that "certificated" is kind of an ugly and cumbersome word...

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/certifi ... tificated/

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:06 am
by Merlinspop
MrMorden wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:To add to the confusion is the sometimes used "certificated"'!
I think that's actually the correct usage. "Certified" means to make certain, and usually refers to a person's credentials (i.e. Certified Public Accountant), while "certificated" refers to something possessing an official document (like an airworthiness certificate). In common use they are largely interchangeable, but I agree with the author of the link below that "certificated" is kind of an ugly and cumbersome word...

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/certifi ... tificated/
"Certificated" sounds to me as if it's British in origin.

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:36 am
by drseti
Merlinspop wrote:"Certificated" sounds to me as if it's British in origin.
Our whole language is British in origin, Andy (though you'd never know it...)

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:46 am
by MrMorden
drseti wrote:
Merlinspop wrote:"Certificated" sounds to me as if it's British in origin.
Our whole language is British in origin, Andy (though you'd never know it...)
Why quote Bruce and direct your comments to me? :lol:

Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:47 am
by drseti
Oops -- sorry Andy (and Bruce). Too many voices in this conversation!