isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

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busted
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isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby busted » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:08 pm

The subject says it all.... thanks

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drseti
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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby drseti » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:19 pm

That all depends on what you mean by "certified." Unfortunately, that's not one of the words defined in the glossary in FAR 1.

Normally, the term "certified" refers to compliance with FAR parts 23 and 33. An LSA receives its "certification" under ASTM consensus standards, which are industry-driven, not regulatory. So, in the legal sense, they are not "certified."

Does that mean they don't comply with any standards? Of course not. It's just that those standards are established by engineers, not politicians. :wink:

The more important question is: under what kind of airworthiness certificate is a given aircraft operating? What we commonly call "certified" aircraft receive a Standard (white) airworthiness certificate. LSAs (as well as experimentals) receive a Special (pink) one.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:02 am

If you look at the definition of certified, then all aircraft the have been issued an airworthiness certificate are certified. In addition since standard category aircraft and SLSA aircraft are built to a standard makes them meet another part of the definition for certified. That being said in aviation speak the term certified normally goes along with standard category aircraft.

A little rant. One of my pet peeves is calling all standard category aircraft part 23. Part 23 is just the current certification standards used for standard category aircraft. There are many standard category aircraft that were certified under earlier certification standards. As an example the beloved Cessna 150 was certified under CAR part 3.

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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby drseti » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:34 am

3Dreaming wrote:If you look at the definition of certified,


But that's the whole problem, Tom. Check 14 CFR part 1. There is no official definition of "certified"!

A workable definition might be to include all aircraft produced under an FAA (or CAA) Type Certificate. Since experimentals and LSAs have no Type Certificate, that would seem to throw them into non-certified status. I don't think the issuance of an airworthiness certificate is an appropriate criterion, since every E-AB gets one, issued by the DAR.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:09 am

drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:If you look at the definition of certified,


But that's the whole problem, Tom. Check 14 CFR part 1. There is no official definition of "certified"!

A workable definition might be to include all aircraft produced under an FAA (or CAA) Type Certificate. Since experimentals and LSAs have no Type Certificate, that would seem to throw them into non-certified status. I don't think the issuance of an airworthiness certificate is an appropriate criterion, since every E-AB gets one, issued by the DAR.


Just because there is no definition in 14 CFR part 1 doesn't mean that you can't go else where for a definition. For example there is no definition for multi engine aircraft, but that doesn't mean multi engine aircraft don't exist.

According to Webster's and others the issue of an airworthiness certificate does make it certified. I have heard many times over the years of an aircraft being certified in the experimental category.

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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby drseti » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:46 am

As far as the FARs (and the FAA, and lawyers) are concerned, the only definitions that count are the ones in Part 1. And an airworthiness certificate may bear the word "operating experimental" (or "operating Light Sport"), but never will it include the word "certified".
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:29 am

drseti wrote:As far as the FARs (and the FAA, and lawyers) are concerned, the only definitions that count are the ones in Part 1. And an airworthiness certificate may bear the word "operating experimental" (or "operating Light Sport"), but never will it include the word "certified".


Paul, the attachment is from the back of an airworthiness certificate for an experimental amateur built aircraft. Notice in block "D" that it says the certificate certifies the aircraft.

airworthiness.pdf
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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby CharlieTango » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:34 am

We should use the phrase 'type certified' to be more clear.

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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:18 pm

CharlieTango wrote:We should use the phrase 'type certified' to be more clear.


I think standard category would be a better choice.

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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:49 pm

To add to the confusion is the sometimes used "certificated"'!
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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby MrMorden » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:24 am

FastEddieB wrote:To add to the confusion is the sometimes used "certificated"'!


I think that's actually the correct usage. "Certified" means to make certain, and usually refers to a person's credentials (i.e. Certified Public Accountant), while "certificated" refers to something possessing an official document (like an airworthiness certificate). In common use they are largely interchangeable, but I agree with the author of the link below that "certificated" is kind of an ugly and cumbersome word...

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/certified-and-certificated/
Andy Walker
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2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby Merlinspop » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:06 am

MrMorden wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:To add to the confusion is the sometimes used "certificated"'!


I think that's actually the correct usage. "Certified" means to make certain, and usually refers to a person's credentials (i.e. Certified Public Accountant), while "certificated" refers to something possessing an official document (like an airworthiness certificate). In common use they are largely interchangeable, but I agree with the author of the link below that "certificated" is kind of an ugly and cumbersome word...

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/certified-and-certificated/

"Certificated" sounds to me as if it's British in origin.
- Bruce

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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby drseti » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:36 am

Merlinspop wrote:"Certificated" sounds to me as if it's British in origin.


Our whole language is British in origin, Andy (though you'd never know it...)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby MrMorden » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:46 am

drseti wrote:
Merlinspop wrote:"Certificated" sounds to me as if it's British in origin.


Our whole language is British in origin, Andy (though you'd never know it...)


Why quote Bruce and direct your comments to me? :lol:
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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Re: isn't a SLSA a certified aircraft?

Postby drseti » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:47 am

Oops -- sorry Andy (and Bruce). Too many voices in this conversation!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US


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