Additional LSA category and class for PP acting as SP

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

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drseti
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Additional LSA category and class for PP acting as SP

Postby drseti » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:53 pm

Folks, I have a training dilemma. Perhaps one of you can help.

A new student is an experienced and rated Private glider pilot. He wants to get trained in ASEL, at the Sport Pilot level (because he has no medical certificate). If he were a Sport Pilot, it would be a simple matter for him to get dual in an LSA airplane, and then receive a logbook endorsement from a CFI, authorizing the additional category/class. But, this pilot is not a Sport Pilot, so I don't see how the endorsement route would apply.

On the other hand, since he's already a Private Pilot (glider), the normal route to becoming a Private Pilot (airplane) would involve training, a written test, a medical certificate, supervised solo flights, cross countries, and a practical test. After all, private pilot licenses carry category/class limitations, whereas Sport Pilot licenses do not. Neither the student nor I find this a desirable course of action.

However, I'm not sure we can go the training and instructor endorsement route, since he's not a Sport Pilot, merely a Private Pilot wishing to exercise SP privileges. So, is the endorsement route even legal for a PP? Can I give him SP ASEL category/class privileges via endorsement, with his existing PP Glider as his only license? Or does he need to get a medical and do a written, solos, XCs, and checkride?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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RyanShort1
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Postby RyanShort1 » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:02 am

I want to know the answer to this as well... we have glider ops on the field where I work the most, and it would be very valuable.

Ryan
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roger lee
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Glider to LSA

Postby roger lee » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:12 am

I have a friend that was a glider pilot. He had some dual and was just signed off from what he relayed to me. I could check with him tomorrow again.
Roger Lee
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Jack Tyler
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Postby Jack Tyler » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:57 am

If I had your question, Paul, I would call a technical counselor at AOPA. I don't think they would quit digging/checking among themselves until they felt they had a full, factual answer.

I don't think the same would be true with the local FSDO office, where you would get the answer one or two people 'thought' was correct. My impression - just that, not based on anything beyond that - is that asking EAA for their view would be pretty similar to calling FSDO. And while it's nice of Roger to offer, hearing what Joe did may not be 'the' answer either, unless there's a FAR reference included in the logbook sign-off.

Good luck on the research; please let us know both what you learn and from who.
Jack
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Postby ka7eej » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:06 am

Roger,
I wish I had seen this before I went to Showlow Saturday moring. I saw Ted there and could have asked him... Good call on the wind...Looks like you made it to Tucson ok...Interesting!!! Seems like instruction and sign off from Two CFI's on ASEL would do the trick but who knows...If he was a Sport Pilot with a Glider rating thats all he would have to do, I think...

Brian
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Paul

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:09 am

Hi Paul,
I think the accurate answer to your question, no matter who it comes from, is going to come from a comparison of the Private Glider Pilot PTS to the Sport Pilot ASEL PTS.

The applicant must be trained and evaluated on a practical test on the Task Areas which are not within the skill set for a Private Glider Pilot.

I think a writen test can be avoided, depending on who is interpreting the regs, but I don't see how he can be granted a Sport ASEL license with the privilege to carry a passenger on a cross country without being trained and evaluated on those tasks. That's just one example.
Bryan Cobb
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drseti
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Postby drseti » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:32 am

Ryan, Roger, Bryan, Jack, and Brian,

First off, thanks for responding. I'm seeing a lot of "I think" and "I believe" posts here -- which is fine, don't get me wrong (I always learn something from the opinions of my peers). But what I'm really hoping for is an "I know" or "I asked FAA and was told..." or even "one of my students was in this situation, and he/she..." Surely, this question must have come up before, in the 6 1/2 years that we've had SP. I'm hoping someone with experience in this area will step forward.

In the meantime, I'm happy to continue hearing the opinions of others, and yes, I will contact AOPA tomorrow morning.

And, yes, of course the PTS will dictate what skills will be taught and tested. It's just a matter of finding up what hoops this pilot will have to jump through in learning and demonstrating those skills.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
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Paul Hamilton
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Postby Paul Hamilton » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:01 am

OK here it is.
Been here, done that.
A private pilot glider no medical wants sport pilot airplane.
61.303 (2) iii ---- must have endorsements in 61.321

Must by trained by one CFI and take a proficiency check with another CFI. He gets a logbook endorsement from the second CFI and the 8710-11 form goes to the FAA and is included in his certificate.

The endorsements for adding a category/class for both CFI's are at:
http://sport-pilot-training.com/category/endorsements/

a more detailed description is at:
http://sport-pilot-training.com/add-cat ... rtificate/

I have a detailed description for CFI's of how to do a proficiency check, which is the same as a checkride in my book plus a chart to simplify this exact question on page 4:
http://www.ap-stores.com/p-50-sport-pil ... -book.aspx

No if, and's or buts, This is how it is done starting with 61.303
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.
See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

bryancobb
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If

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:05 am

If he were my student...
1)I'd prep him for the oral and checkride.
2) I'd complete his 8710-11 and If I could get IACRA to accept it, I'd send him to the DPE without a written score sheet.
3) If the DPE does the checkride and the student gets his card from the FAA in a few weeks... There'd be my answer.
4) If the DPE says he needs a written, I'd send him to get one.

As we discussed in the SPI Hours Counting thread, pressing for a definitive answer on questions always gets us the answer we don't want.
Bryan Cobb

Sport Pilot CFI

Commercial/Instrument Airplane

Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

Cartersville, Ga

bryandcobb@att.net

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Paul Hamilton
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Postby Paul Hamilton » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:07 am

yes also the next question.
What about a flight review for this new category. Does the proficiency check count as a flight review? NO, only checkrides count

If they are non current, no current flight review, that have to get one in a glider before the proficiency check, or after the proficiency check in a LSA ASEL to be "current" after. It is kind of rediculious to train someone in a new category, take a proficiency check and that hve to go back and do an hour flight, and hour ground but that is how it works.
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.

See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

bryancobb
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Great Answer

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:08 am

OK .... THat's easy. NO DPE.

Just a Pro-Check and 8710. Great.
Bryan Cobb

Sport Pilot CFI

Commercial/Instrument Airplane

Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

Cartersville, Ga

bryandcobb@att.net

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Paul Hamilton
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Postby Paul Hamilton » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:15 am

Yep, 2 sport ASEL qualified CFI's and an 8710-11 to FAA
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.

See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

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Glider to LSA

Postby roger lee » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:19 pm

I just talked to my friend that went from glider to LSA. As Paul H. stated he had to have 2 CFI's sign him off. No written or flight testing. He also had to get the over 87 knot speed and the air space/radio sign offs in his logbook.
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
LSRM-A, Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
(520) 574-1080 (Home) Try Home First.
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Paul Hamilton
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Re: Glider to LSA

Postby Paul Hamilton » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:43 pm

roger lee wrote: No written or flight testing. He also had to get the over 87 knot speed and the air space/radio sign offs in his logbook.


Must be a mistake about no flight test. There is a flight test same which is part of the proficiency check. (a proficiency check is the same as a checkride only it is performed by a CFI)
Last edited by Paul Hamilton on Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.

See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

roger lee
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Check ride?

Postby roger lee » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:51 pm

Hi Paul,

He didn't mention any check ride and only that the the 2 CFI's had to sign him off. If you are implying he needed a certified flight examiner to check him out like a new certifying pilot, I know that didn't happen. From what I gather much of the flight testing was covered under his glider license.
This was what they were instructed to do by the FAA.
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
LSRM-A, Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
(520) 574-1080 (Home) Try Home First.
(520) 349-7056 (Cell)


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