PPL Training Count Twoards SPL?

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

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NCPilot
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PPL Training Count Twoards SPL?

Postby NCPilot » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:56 pm

I have a friend who started on his PPL training back in 2007, but he had to stop in 2008 due to finances. He passed the written exam and actually built up some solo time (both just poking around the local airspace and solo XC trips), he's basically done everything except the check ride.

He's wondering if it's possible to use the PPL Training time towards a Sport Pilot License. His reasoning for wanting a SPL instead of a PPL is that he's like me, a recreational pilot who flies more for fun instead of travel. He'll fly some XC trips, go to a few Fly in like AirVenture or the US Sport Aviation Expo, etc.

He's also wondering if his PPL time can count towards the endorsement to fly into D, C, and B airspace.

Thoughts?

ibgarrett
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Postby ibgarrett » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:26 pm

NCPilot,

The short answer is - yup!

The long answer is, if he's got his log book from back in 2007, he should be able to apply that time towards his SP license. I've run across so many guys that have been in the same situation in our flight club that I've lost track.

The best thing for him to do is to meet up with an instructor, cover what he's gone over skill-wise, then go up with an instructor and let them evaluate where he's at in the process and then go from there.

Brian
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drseti
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Postby drseti » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:01 pm

Having his old logbook is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for receiving credit for prior training. If the previous flight school is still in business, and the previous instructor is still around, it might be possible for your friend to obtain his training records from them. (The FAA only requires instructors to keep these records on file for a period of two years -- but, post-911, the TSA requires that they be retained for five years, so there's a pretty good chance they will be in a locked filing cabinet at the flight school.) If a student brings photocopies of previous training records to me, it becomes a simple matter to do a single evaluation flight, and then know exactly where to place the student in my curriculum.

I had a post-solo primary student transfer to my school about a year ago. He provided me with both his previous training records, and a letter from his old flight instructor recommending him for post-solo training. Within a couple of months thereafter, he was a licensed Sport Pilot.
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zdc

Postby zdc » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:43 am

[quote="drseti"]Having his old logbook is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for receiving credit for prior training.

Do you mean not sufficient enough for you? I believe a log book is all the evidence of prior training that is required by the FAA in order for an indivual to recieve prior credit for training.

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Postby drseti » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:20 am

No matter how many hours a student may have logged, a CFI needs to endorse that student for solo flights and checkrides. Any instructor who will sign endorsements based on logged hours alone shouldn't be teaching!
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Postby jnmeade » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:13 am

zdc wrote:
drseti wrote:Having his old logbook is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for receiving credit for prior training.

Do you mean not sufficient enough for you? I believe a log book is all the evidence of prior training that is required by the FAA in order for an indivual to recieve prior credit for training.


Here's the requirement FAR 61.87 puts on the instructor in the instance of solo flight, as one example. I take it we are talking about solo flight? I don't see a problem with one instructor accepting another instructor's tail wheel endorsement or aerial tow launch endorsement without duplicating the training.

(p) Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight. No instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless that instructor has—

(1) Given that student pilot training in the make and model of aircraft or a similar make and model of aircraft in which the solo flight is to be flown;

(2) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the maneuvers and procedures prescribed in this section;

(3) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the make and model of aircraft to be flown;

(4) Ensured that the student pilot's certificate has been endorsed by an instructor authorized to provide flight training for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and

(5) Endorsed the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown, and that endorsement remains current for solo flight privileges, provided an authorized instructor updates the student's logbook every 90 days thereafter.

As I read it, the instructor giving the solo authorization has to give the training, and I read that to mean him/herself. I've always been told, thought I don't have a citation at hand, that "giving training" is dual or could be in a sim. My own practice is that this as a bare minimum means a flight with the student in a similar airplane to that endorsed for the solo flight, and the training should include maneuvers in the FAR solo requirements section. I don't always insist on every part of every maneuver if the student demonstrates competency in the essential elements.
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zdc

Postby zdc » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:23 am

drseti wrote:No matter how many hours a student may have logged, a CFI needs to endorse that student for solo flights and checkrides. Any instructor who will sign endorsements based on logged hours alone shouldn't be teaching!


Your previous post suggests that unless documentation from a flight school or instructor can be obtained, previous instruction that a student may have received, that is documented in the students logbook, would not count towards the required hours for a certificate.

It is one thing to say an instructor needs to conduct their own evaluation of a student with previous training, and another thing to say that previous training not backed by flight school or instructor records is null and void. While you didn't use those words, one could certainly draw that conclusion from what you wrote. Very misleading, particularly to those just starting their training.

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Postby drseti » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:44 am

I thought I made this clear, but apparently not. Of course, the hours count. It's the endorsements I would question.
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zdc

Postby zdc » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:59 am

drseti wrote:I thought I made this clear, but apparently not. Of course, the hours count. It's the endorsements I would question.


I don't know why you would question the endorsements in a log book unless you thought they were a forgery. No matter what documentation was gathered I would assume any instructor would want to conduct an inflight evaluation of a new student.

As for flight instructor records, the only record keeping required is endorsements for solo flight, reccomendations for written tests and checkrides and the outcomes of those tests and checkrides. Not much to go on if only the minimum required records are kept. I would assume a Part 141 flight school would have much more detailed records. BTW, flight instructor records must be kept for 3 years not 2

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Postby jnmeade » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:11 am

Pages 7&8 of the AC 61-65E have some interesting discussion on this topic. I know an AC is not mandatory.

It does discuss what endorsements must be made by whom under what circumstances.
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Postby drseti » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:22 am

zdc wrote:I don't know why you would question the endorsements in a log book unless you thought they were a forgery.


Just because some other instructor signed you off to solo, that doesn't mean you get to solo at my school. My aircraft, my rules.

BTW, flight instructor records must be kept for 3 years not 2


Correct. Thanks for catching my typo. (TSA still requires records to be retained for 5 years)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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zdc

Postby zdc » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:30 am

[quote="drseti"][quote="zdc"]Just because some other instructor signed you off to solo, that doesn't mean you get to solo at my school. My aircraft, my rules.

Thanks for the clarification. Your rules, not the FAA's.

zdc

Postby zdc » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:02 pm

[quote="drseti"]flight school.) If a student brings photocopies of previous training records to me, it becomes a simple matter to do a single evaluation flight, and then know exactly where to place the student in my curriculum.

I'm trying to understand your reasoning here. A student presents to you his previous training record, which according to regulation consits of name, date and endorsement. That is the same info that is in the students logbook.

If a student has a copy of this record you do an evaluation flight, which makes perfect sense. Left unsaid is what you would do if all the student has is a logbook. More than a single evaluation flight? If so, why? The same information that is in the instructors' record is the same as what is in the students logbook.

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dstclair
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Postby dstclair » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:16 pm

Back to the original question -- the PP time will count towards the corresponding SP time. It is possible that he has met all the SP flying requirements but that still doesnt make him ready for the check ride. A CFI is going to need to determine if he is proficient at the skills he is required to demonstrate to get his SP ticket. This is going to take a few hours. Probably more than 1 and less than 20. YMMV.

Related example. I had over 600 hrs and took 10 years off from flying. It took me 5 hours in a SportStar to get comfortable and legally current. I did intentionally add 1 HR hood time so could've been signed off in 4 hrs. BTW - highly recommend doing hood time as part of your BFR.

Your friend has taken 3 years off from flying. I'd guess he'll need 8-10 total hours (solo plus instruction).
dave

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Re: PPL Training Count Twoards SPL?

Postby jnmeade » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:30 pm

NCPilot wrote:He's also wondering if his PPL time can count towards the endorsement to fly into D, C, and B airspace.

Thoughts?


My guess is he would need something in his log book that pretty specifically meets the following requirements. If he doesn't, he needs to get the endorsement.

§ 61.325 How do I obtain privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft at an airport within, or in airspace within, Class B, C, and D airspace, or in other airspace with an airport having an operational control tower?

If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft in Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, or to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower, you must receive and log ground and flight training. The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:

(a) The use of radios, communications, navigation system/facilities, and radar services.

(b) Operations at airports with an operating control tower to include three takeoffs and landings to a full stop, with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern, at an airport with an operating control tower.

(c) Applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances.

Here is what the endorsement looks like, per AC 61-65E. Given the wording, I doubt if his current logbook entry meets all the requirements.

28. Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower: section 61.325.
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of section 61.325. I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05
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