PPL Training Count Twoards SPL?

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

Moderators: drseti, Paul Hamilton

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5754
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Postby drseti » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:43 pm

zdc wrote:The same information that is in the instructors' record is the same as what is in the students logbook.


Of course, I can't speak for other flight schools and other instructors, but it is my experience (and good professionalism) for instructor records to go far beyond the FAA minimum requirements. The Gleim and ASA pilot kits, for example (and probably the Sporty's and King ones as well) contain a training record in which the flight instructor can check off exactly which maneuvers were taught in each lesson, and enter the level of proficiency demonstrated by the student. Such a record will let a new instructor know exactly what the student has covered, in what aircraft, and to what skill level. Absent such a detailed record, a checkout to transition a student to a new instructor will need to be more thorough and detailed -- but with good documentation, the new instructor can reduce the scope of a checkout, saving the student time and cost. Thus, it is in the best interest of the student for the instructor to exceed FAA record-keeping requirements.

Back to the original question -- if a student has started in a PPL curriculum, and wants to transition to SP, I would need to know what kind of aircraft he or she trained in, because skills learned in one aircraft do not necessarily transfer directly to another one. LSAs are a different breed even from the ubiquitous Cessna 150 and 152, and meeting PTS performance levels on one does not necessarily mean the student will be able to meet them in the other.

Bottom line: of course the hours count, but that doesn't necessarily mean the skills are up to par. In the final analysis, any student needs as much training as it takes to meet PTS requirements. If the student can't satisfy the CFI's personal standards, it's unlikely that he or she will meet those of the DPE. Conversely, if the CFI is happy, the DPE will probably be as well.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

Jack Tyler
Posts: 1380
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:49 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Postby Jack Tyler » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:57 pm

...or put succinctly, the real question simply can't be just about 'hours'.

Paul, as I read this thread I was left wondering if part of the discussion doesn't reflect a generation gap of sorts. When I think about some (actually, most...) of the FBO CFI's I've been exposed to in Florida, they've been relatively young, were building hours for their aviation career path, and their other post-academic employment outside of aviation was either entry level or hourly. IOW they hadn't yet had a chance to learn about 'professionalism' in a broader (outside the cockpit) sense, and they didn't seem to be getting it by the FBO or flight school, who expected them to move on in a year or two. By contrast, you've been a professional educator for decades and are 'old school' when it comes to aviation because it's probably the Part 23 GA 'golden years' when your expectations of a CFI's (and an FBO's) responsibilities were first formed. Back then, the numbers (of a/c, of students, of hours flown - it wasn't all that long ago there were 800,000 licensed pilots in the USA) made a lot of things possible at the local airfield.

Today I'm thinking the business climate around an FBO or flight school is just very different. This may be unrepresentative but I don't think I've known a single CFI that is as diligent or thoughtful about recording student performance or evaluating a transferring student as you describe. (Altho' it's great to hear there are still instructors that take that kind of care, and my hat's off to you for doing so). With the LSA/SP focus today on minimum standards and the high per/hour flight costs and low per/hr CFI compensation, this must all sound like yesteryear to some of the new SP population.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

NCPilot
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:09 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA

Postby NCPilot » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:40 pm

drseti wrote:Back to the original question -- if a student has started in a PPL curriculum, and wants to transition to SP, I would need to know what kind of aircraft he or she trained in, because skills learned in one aircraft do not necessarily transfer directly to another one. LSAs are a different breed even from the ubiquitous Cessna 150 and 152, and meeting PTS performance levels on one does not necessarily mean the student will be able to meet them in the other.


How hard would it be to transition from a Piper Cherokee 180 to a SportCruiser? Because the SP flight school we're both looking at (for me, I wouldn't mind getting checked out in the SportCruiser) have the SportCruiser for their LSA.

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5754
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Postby drseti » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:48 pm

NCPilot wrote:How hard would it be to transition from a Piper Cherokee 180 to a SportCruiser?


Not hard at all, as long as you accept that it's a different kind of beast, and you're going to need some training. Any time someone downsizes to LSA, he or she becomes, briefly, a student pilot all over again. I have developed a three-day transition curriculum consisting of five flight hours, four hours of ground instruction, and an accompanying CD worth of documentation for self-study. Details online at http://avsport.org/about/downsize.htm. Feel free to show this curriculum to any flight school at which you might care to transition -- in the interests of safety, I'm happy to share it.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5754
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Postby drseti » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:56 pm

Jack Tyler wrote:Paul, as I read this thread I was left wondering if part of the discussion doesn't reflect a generation gap of sorts.


Jack, I've been called an old fart before, but never quite so diplomatically. :wink:
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

NCPilot
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:09 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA

Postby NCPilot » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:22 pm

drseti wrote:
NCPilot wrote:How hard would it be to transition from a Piper Cherokee 180 to a SportCruiser?


Not hard at all, as long as you accept that it's a different kind of beast, and you're going to need some training. Any time someone downsizes to LSA, he or she becomes, briefly, a student pilot all over again. I have developed a three-day transition curriculum consisting of five flight hours, four hours of ground instruction, and an accompanying CD worth of documentation for self-study. Details online at http://avsport.org/about/downsize.htm. Feel free to show this curriculum to any flight school at which you might care to transition -- in the interests of safety, I'm happy to share it.


Cool, I've been looking at becoming a SP myself (letting my 3rd class Medical lapse), mainly because it looks like so much fun. If I had to compare it to cars, it's like going from a four door sedan to a sport's car.

You can do more in a sedan, and you can seat more, but the sports car is more fun to drive.

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5754
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Postby drseti » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:28 pm

NCPilot wrote:it's like going from a four door sedan to a sport's car.


More like going from sedan to motorcycle, IMHO. Not at all practical, but certainly puts the zing back in life!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

NCPilot
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:09 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA

Postby NCPilot » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:45 pm

drseti wrote:
NCPilot wrote:it's like going from a four door sedan to a sport's car.


More like going from sedan to motorcycle, IMHO. Not at all practical, but certainly puts the zing back in life!


Well since I fly by myself 99% of the time, and a recreational flyer, the motorcycle fits my needs perfectly. :D

3Dreaming
Posts: 2299
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:01 am

NCPilot wrote:
drseti wrote:
NCPilot wrote:How hard would it be to transition from a Piper Cherokee 180 to a SportCruiser?


Not hard at all, as long as you accept that it's a different kind of beast, and you're going to need some training. Any time someone downsizes to LSA, he or she becomes, briefly, a student pilot all over again. I have developed a three-day transition curriculum consisting of five flight hours, four hours of ground instruction, and an accompanying CD worth of documentation for self-study. Details online at http://avsport.org/about/downsize.htm. Feel free to show this curriculum to any flight school at which you might care to transition -- in the interests of safety, I'm happy to share it.


Cool, I've been looking at becoming a SP myself (letting my 3rd class Medical lapse), mainly because it looks like so much fun. If I had to compare it to cars, it's like going from a four door sedan to a sport's car.

You can do more in a sedan, and you can seat more, but the sports car is more fun to drive.


NCPilot, if you are a private pilot you will remain a private pilot. You just operate under the sport pilot privilages and limitations. All you need is a check out in the airplane and a flight review if it is expired.

User avatar
Paul Hamilton
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 2:42 pm
Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

Postby Paul Hamilton » Sat May 28, 2011 10:07 am

Good thread.
If I was going to summarize:
Private pilot training hours from long, long ago properly logged count towards the sport pilot minimum 15 training and 5 solo, however,
Any CFI needs to make sure the student pilot is trained properly and meets all the SP requirements in the LSA for a checkride. What ever it takes.

Yes the new LSA is like going from a cruiser to a sport car, different animal. I have found the transition is about 5 hours for Cessna/piper pilots to transition to LSA. If you want to fly a motorcycle, the weight-shift control trike is the motorcycle of the sky.
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.
See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites


Return to “Ask The Examiner”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests