Another Question About Short Field Landing

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

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bill_dom
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Another Question About Short Field Landing

Postby bill_dom » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:16 pm

In relation to short field landings, the PTS state that you must touch down on the selected spot or 200 feet afterward.

My question is, if my selected spot is the second line after the numbers, where does the 200 feet start? Will the 200 feet start from the beginning of the second line or the end of the second line?

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drseti
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Re: Another Question About Short Field Landing

Postby drseti » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:31 pm

bill_dom wrote:My question is, if my selected spot is the second line after the numbers, where does the 200 feet start? Will the 200 feet start from the beginning of the second line or the end of the second line?


Bill, if you're so close to the margin that the width of the line will matter, then you haven't mastered spot landings yet. :wink: Your goal should be to leave tire prints on the line itself!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
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Jim Stewart
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Postby Jim Stewart » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:42 pm

Use google earth to bring up a satellite image of your airport. Then use the measuring tape tool to find the distance you need. I've had a lot of fun verifying my landing distances that way.

bill_dom
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Postby bill_dom » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:46 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:Use google earth to bring up a satellite image of your airport. Then use the measuring tape tool to find the distance you need. I've had a lot of fun verifying my landing distances that way.


I did that. 200 feet goes from the beginning of the line to the beginning of the next line, so I'm assuming that is my touch down window. However, one of my instructors says that I have until the end of the next line. That means that the 200 grace area is after your spot, and your spot can be the entire previous line. So, which of the previous assumptions is the right one? from begging to beginning or from beginning to the end of next line?

bill_dom
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Re: Another Question About Short Field Landing

Postby bill_dom » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:51 pm

drseti wrote:
bill_dom wrote:My question is, if my selected spot is the second line after the numbers, where does the 200 feet start? Will the 200 feet start from the beginning of the second line or the end of the second line?


Bill, if you're so close to the margin that the width of the line will matter, then you haven't mastered spot landings yet. :wink: Your goal should be to leave tire prints on the line itself!


I do get to touch down on the spot but not consistently. Some times I'm within the 200 feet after the spot and a few times I get it before which does not meet the PTS.

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Re: Another Question About Short Field Landing

Postby ka7eej » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:30 am

bill_dom wrote:In relation to short field landings, the PTS state that you must touch down on the selected spot or 200 feet afterward.

My question is, if my selected spot is the second line after the numbers, where does the 200 feet start? Will the 200 feet start from the beginning of the second line or the end of the second line?


Bill you are not reading the PTS correctly.. It says at or within 200 feet.. Look to see where the word "beyond" is in the sentence on line number 8...
Don't make it any harder that it is.. I don't think that that many (none probably) DPE's go out and measure 200 feet and then have someone on the side of the runway to spot your exact touchdown point. Have fun..


F. TASK: SHORT-FIELD (CONFINED AREA—ASES) APPROACH AND LANDING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, FAA-H-8083-23; AFM/POH.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (Confined Area—ASES) approach and landing.
2. Adequately surveys the intended landing area. (ASES)
3. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface, obstructions, and selects the most suitable touchdown point.
4. Establishes the recommended approach and landing configuration and airspeed/attitude; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
5. Maintains a stabilized approach and the recommended approach airspeed/attitude, or in its absence not more than 1.3 Vso, +10/−5 knots.
6. Selects the proper landing path, contacts the water at the minimum safe airspeed with the proper pitch attitude for the surface conditions. (ASES)
7. Touches down smoothly at minimum control airspeed. (ASEL)
8. Touches down at or within 200 feet beyond a specified point.
9. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the approach and landing sequence.
10. Applies brakes if equipped (ASEL), or elevator control (ASES) as necessary, to stop in the shortest distance consistent with safety.


Brian
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bryancobb
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Still Sayin'

Postby bryancobb » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:27 am

I'm still of the opinion that splitting hairs like this is NOT in the spirit and intent of the PTS. One through Ten above, are NOT intended to be PASS/FAIL criteria, by the writers of the PTS. (My Opinion)

These are "reasonably expected results" that the examiner is suppose to use to EVALUATE the applicant. If the applicant's short field performance is great except he takes 300ft after his called out point till his wheels touch.

HE SHOULD NOT FAIL HIS CHECKRIDE BASED ON THAT.

The DPE should use his common-sense and judgement, to decide if the applicant should earn a Pilots License. The FAA list certain tasks as MANDATORY for testing on the checkride. These tasks, being more important, would be pass/fail items if the applicant doesn't "measure up"
based on the DPE's common-sense and judgement.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net

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drseti
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Postby drseti » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:42 am

I'm with Bryan on this. The only absolute fail criteria on a practical test is if the DPE has to take control of the aircraft away from the applicant to prevent an accident. Otherwise, the applicant makes his or her best effort, the DPE evaluates, and sometimes even gives some additional instruction on the spot. These folks are, first and always, flight instructors, and they enjoy teaching. If an applicant performs a particular maneuver below his or her personal standards, it's OK to say "I messed that one up, and I can do better. I'm going to try it again." As long as nothing unsafe occurred, I can't see a DPE saying anything other than "go for it!"
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
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comperini
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Postby comperini » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:46 am

drseti wrote:As long as nothing unsafe occurred, I can't see a DPE saying anything other than "go for it!"


Well, there needs to be some limits on this. From page 12 of the PTS:

"If the examiner or authorized instructor determines that a TASK is incomplete, or the outcome uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that TASK, or portions of that TASK. This provision has been made in the interest of fairness and does not mean that instruction, practice, or the repeating of an unsatisfactory TASK is permitted during the certification process"

The part of the above paragraph that allows for "repeats" was intended to deal with the case, where the examiner wasn't able to completely evaluate the maneuver for what ever reason (sleeping?), or when the maneuver could not be completed (because of traffic in the area, etc).

Also, from Chapter 7 of the Examiners Handbook (FAA Order 8900.2):

"Repeating Maneuvers on Practical Tests. A completed unsatisfactory maneuver may not be repeated. The criteria for allowing the repeat of a maneuver are contained in the applicable PTS."

We have rules to follow too. But yes, examiners do try their best to be fair, and realize that the applicant is not a "seasoned" pilot yet. So, in the case of the flubbed short field landing.... If the applicant made a crappy landing obviously way beyond the 200 foot mark, screeching the tires, and finally coming to rest with the nosewheel in the dirt at the far end of the runway, its going to be a failure. It wasn't the best judgement of the applicant to allow such a lousy landing to continue on what could have been an actual short field.

In this case, I would have preferred to see the applicant recognize the approach and landing were not going to be good, and perform a go-around instead. That would have shown me that the applicant demonstrates good ADM skills, and as a bonus, we would have completed the go-around task. Personally, I would not want to see multiple go-arounds, because that just proves the applicant hasn't really mastered short-field landings.
- Bob
COMM, CFI, DPE, Light Sport Repairman/Maintenance
http://www.sportpilotinstructor.com

bryancobb
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Reasonable

Postby bryancobb » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:57 am

comperini wrote:"Repeating Maneuvers on Practical Tests. A completed unsatisfactory maneuver may not be repeated.


If an applicant does a nice short field approach and landing, 300-400 beyond his "point," Would you call this an "unsatisfactory" maneuver?

At the Sport Pilot level, I don't think "Mastering" the maneuver is a requirement. It's more like "Novice Level" performance.

I think you would agree that if they demonstrate an understanding of concepts of the maneuver during the oral, (To the Sport Pilot Level, not master), and they do a nice traffic pattern and stable approach but their airspeed is allowed to get a little high at the bottom which causes them to float, (Normal Sport Plot Level Performance but not normal of a master) The applicant should not fail his checkride. Failure is a permanent "ding" on his pilot record which never disappears. Insurance Companies see it. Prospective employers see it. If I were a DPE, I just would not want an applicant to have to carry that baggage even though I felt he was qualified to be a pilot.

I think if you were to say..."That was a pass on that landing, but do it again and try to control your airspeed a little better at the bottom and see if you can touchdown smoothly in a little shorter distance." you would not be breaking your RULES.
Bryan Cobb

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Commercial/Instrument Airplane

Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

Cartersville, Ga

bryandcobb@att.net

comperini
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Re: Reasonable

Postby comperini » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:20 am

bryancobb wrote:At the Sport Pilot level, I don't think "Mastering" the maneuver is a requirement. It's more like "Novice Level" performance.


Define "Novice". Define "mastery".

Right from the PTS... "Satisfactory performance includes that the applicant can: demonstrate mastery of the aircraft with the successful outcome of each TASK performed never seriously in doubt"

I think you would agree that if they demonstrate an understanding of concepts of the maneuver during the oral, (To the Sport Pilot Level, not master), and they do a nice traffic pattern and stable approach but their airspeed is allowed to get a little high at the bottom which causes them to float, (Normal Sport Plot Level Performance but not normal of a master) The applicant should not fail his checkride.


That's why there is a "range" of acceptable tolerances in the PTS (such as airspeeds). Yes, there's wiggle room. For example, if doing the landing in gusty conditions, I would rather see a little extra airspeed, as opposed to being right at "minimum controllable airspeed"

Failure is a permanent "ding" on his pilot record which never disappears. Insurance Companies see it. Prospective employers see it.


Where does the FAA publish that information? Has anyone ever been told by their insurance company that their rates are higher because they failed a practical? I've never seen a job application for United before. Maybe they ask you those questions. I just don't know.

As someone early on in this discussion already mentioned, the examiner is not going to run out there with a tape measure. There probably is a big enough difference between 200 and 400 feet, that the examiner will notice that.

If you believe I'm wrong as to what should or should not be allowed during a PTS, please call AFS-610 and ask them (feel welcomed to report me, too). (405) 954-6400.
- Bob

COMM, CFI, DPE, Light Sport Repairman/Maintenance

http://www.sportpilotinstructor.com

bryancobb
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I'm Out

Postby bryancobb » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:11 pm

This forum is just for discussion and friendly debate.
There's no room or desire to report anyone to anyone.

There should be plenty of room to gain insight from the OPINIONS all who are involved, without getting our feathers ruffled.

I'm out on this thread.

Sorry,
Bryan Cobb

Sport Pilot CFI

Commercial/Instrument Airplane

Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

Cartersville, Ga

bryandcobb@att.net

bill_dom
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Re: I'm Out

Postby bill_dom » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:59 am

bryancobb wrote:This forum is just for discussion and friendly debate.
There's no room or desire to report anyone to anyone.

There should be plenty of room to gain insight from the OPINIONS all who are involved, without getting our feathers ruffled.

I'm out on this thread.

Sorry,


I think you misinterpreted comperini comments in a negative way. When he says "..please call AFS-610 and ask them (feel welcomed to report me, too).." he's not challenging you to report him to the FAA but to ask them for clarification in the topic and then to let him know what they say. At least that is how I interpreted when I first read it.

comperini
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Postby comperini » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:04 am

Yes, thank you. That is exactly what I meant. I worded it wrong. No offense intended
- Bob

COMM, CFI, DPE, Light Sport Repairman/Maintenance

http://www.sportpilotinstructor.com

jnmeade
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Postby jnmeade » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:33 am

200' is 200' and that or better should be your training standard.

Examiners have some leeway as discussed in assessing your performance but it is a mistake to assume the applicant will always get the benefit of the doubt in cases where the PTS standard was not met.

Your instructor is not doing you a favor by giving you the idea that you can be sloppy about the standards.
Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
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