Lsa instrument requirement

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

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SportCubJim
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Lsa instrument requirement

Postby SportCubJim » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:26 am

I thought the current LSA rules now require some specifically logged training on instruments before taking the check ride.

I asked my instructor and he says no.

Please clarify.
Jim


ArionAv8or
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Postby ArionAv8or » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:23 pm

Although it is not required I completed 1 hour under the hood with my instructor so I was familiar with unusual attitiude recovery. I recommend this to everyone regardless of requirements, better to have too much knowledge than not enough. Besides, it was a great learning experience that was a lot of fun.

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Paul Hamilton
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Postby Paul Hamilton » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:37 am

There is a lot of confusion about this. It is required before a solo cross country and therefore, before the checkride.

Instrument training is required by all student pilots airplane pilots (sport and private) before their cross country flight per 61.93 (e) 12 This is it no question. It is a regulation. All instructors are required to know this and do it. Note that it has been relaxed for airplanes with Vh below 87 knots. There is some debate about this, but the way I understand it, if you do not have an attitude indicator, a partial panel (airspeed, altitude, vertical speed, compass) is acceptable for this requirement. Note there is no time requirement for this.

So yes, some instrument training is required for all student airplane pilots Vh greater than 87 knots for sport and private before their first solo cross country flight

You can se the updated regulation at
http://lsapilot.beasportpilot.com/airpl ... resources/
or directly at
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... ain_02.tpl
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.
See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

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Paul Hamilton
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Postby Paul Hamilton » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:56 am

and here it is copied from the regulations:
§ 61.93 Solo cross-country flight requirements.
e) Maneuvers and procedures for cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for cross-country flight in a single-engine airplane must receive and log flight training in the following maneuvers and procedures:
(12) Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments, including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio aids, and ATC directives. For student pilots seeking a sport pilot certificate, the provisions of this paragraph only apply when receiving training for cross-country flight in an airplane that has a VHgreater than 87 knots CAS.
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.

See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

zdc

Postby zdc » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:37 pm

Paul Hamilton wrote:and here it is copied from the regulations:
§ 61.93 Solo cross-country flight requirements.
e) Maneuvers and procedures for cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for cross-country flight in a single-engine airplane must receive and log flight training in the following maneuvers and procedures:
(12) Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments, including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio aids, and ATC directives. For student pilots seeking a sport pilot certificate, the provisions of this paragraph only apply when receiving training for cross-country flight in an airplane that has a VHgreater than 87 knots CAS.


And what qualifications must the instructor providing the training have? Can a sport only [subpart K] instructor give the instrument training for 61.93?

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Paul Hamilton
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Postby Paul Hamilton » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:51 pm

zdc wrote:And what qualifications must the instructor providing the training have? Can a sport only [subpart K] instructor give the instrument training for 61.93?


GOOD QUESTION
Based on the way this is written and that these are simple instrument procedures the sport pilot CFIS has "been trained" in first place, I would say yes. What the FAA provides as guidance to me, "you have to be trained at it before you can train it". Each sport pilot CFI has to be trained for this as a sport pilot.

However, I know this is up for "interpretation" and there will many be for and against each side, but this is my opinion. The attorneys will make the final decision if/when we ask for an official FAA opinion/policy and push it. I know this is on "their" plate to be able to "clarify" this question.

What do you think the answer should be or your opinion?
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.

See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

zdc

Postby zdc » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:34 pm

Paul Hamilton wrote:
zdc wrote:And what qualifications must the instructor providing the training have? Can a sport only [subpart K] instructor give the instrument training for 61.93?


GOOD QUESTION
Based on the way this is written and that these are simple instrument procedures the sport pilot CFIS has "been trained" in first place, I would say yes. What the FAA provides as guidance to me, "you have to be trained at it before you can train it". Each sport pilot CFI has to be trained for this as a sport pilot.

However, I know this is up for "interpretation" and there will many be for and against each side, but this is my opinion. The attorneys will make the final decision if/when we ask for an official FAA opinion/policy and push it. I know this is on "their" plate to be able to "clarify" this question.

What do you think the answer should be or your opinion?


I don't think the regulation writers gave 61.93 much thought as regards sport pilot. I would think the intent of the new sport pilot rules was to not require any instrument training , since the proposed 1 hr instrument training requirement was rejected.

However, since 61.93 clearly says what it says, I question whether a subpart K instructor without an instrument rating is qualified to give instrument training. Hopefuly, the FAA will drop any instrument training requirements for Sport.

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Paul Hamilton
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Postby Paul Hamilton » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:05 pm

zdc wrote:
Paul Hamilton wrote:
zdc wrote:And what qualifications must the instructor providing the training have? Can a sport only [subpart K] instructor give the instrument training for 61.93?


GOOD QUESTION
Based on the way this is written and that these are simple instrument procedures the sport pilot CFIS has "been trained" in first place, I would say yes. What the FAA provides as guidance to me, "you have to be trained at it before you can train it". Each sport pilot CFI has to be trained for this as a sport pilot.

However, I know this is up for "interpretation" and there will many be for and against each side, but this is my opinion. The attorneys will make the final decision if/when we ask for an official FAA opinion/policy and push it. I know this is on "their" plate to be able to "clarify" this question.

What do you think the answer should be or your opinion?


I don't think the regulation writers gave 61.93 much thought as regards sport pilot. I would think the intent of the new sport pilot rules was to not require any instrument training , since the proposed 1 hr instrument training requirement was rejected.

However, since 61.93 clearly says what it says, I question whether a subpart K instructor without an instrument rating is qualified to give instrument training. Hopefuly, the FAA will drop any instrument training requirements for Sport.


In the last regulation update, they did drop this "instrument training" for airplanes with a Vs less than the 87 knots, so there has been some progress.

But it does not define any time for the instrument training. It could be 5 minutes or 5 hours. No standards must be met. Similar to the spin training for CFIS's except that you actually have to spin to have spin training.
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.

See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

Helen
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Postby Helen » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:34 am

And what qualifications must the instructor providing the training have? Can a sport only [subpart K] instructor give the instrument training for 61.93?[/quote]

The current FAA interpretation is that a subpark K instructor may give the instruction if he/she holds at least a private pilot certificate and a medical. A subpart H instructor must also hold a medical to give the instruction.

The FAA is aware of the problems that this is causing and as such is working to change this. To be continued...

Helen
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N918KT
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Postby N918KT » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:03 pm

Paul Hamilton wrote:There is a lot of confusion about this. It is required before a solo cross country and therefore, before the checkride.

Instrument training is required by all student pilots airplane pilots (sport and private) before their cross country flight per 61.93 (e) 12 This is it no question. It is a regulation. All instructors are required to know this and do it. Note that it has been relaxed for airplanes with Vh below 87 knots. There is some debate about this, but the way I understand it, if you do not have an attitude indicator, a partial panel (airspeed, altitude, vertical speed, compass) is acceptable for this requirement. Note there is no time requirement for this.

So yes, some instrument training is required for all student airplane pilots Vh greater than 87 knots for sport and private before their first solo cross country flight

You can se the updated regulation at
http://lsapilot.beasportpilot.com/airpl ... resources/
or directly at
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... ain_02.tpl



Today, before I flew in the Storm Century LSA, me and my Chief CFI were discussing about weather and my Chief CFI told me that someday he would prefer if we fly a 172 into IFR conditions and do some instrument training. But I told him that I thought sport pilots aren't allowed to fly IFR or in IMC. But he told me that he wants me to do it to get experience in IMC. It's been awhile but is instrument flight training still needed for sport pilot students? Or did the FAA relaxed the requirement? If so, I have another question. Since the Century LSA isn't IFR approved, can I do the training in a 172 and it counts towards the instrument requirement for sport pilot?

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Paul Hamilton
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Postby Paul Hamilton » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:34 pm

Nothing has changed from the requirements as listed above, instrument training is required, and yes a 172 is OK to do it in.
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.

See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites

jnmeade
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Postby jnmeade » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:28 am

Please post some specific citations for the requirements discussed above so I can research them a little, as well.
One specific question is why does the instructor need to have a private and a medical? Is there some reason the instructor cant be PIC with a drivers license if the student is under the hood?
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