Hi guys and gals, I am a fairly new sport pilot continuing on to get a private ticket for various reasons. My instructor gave me a solo endorsement for a C172 in February and another one to operate in towered airspace last month. After finishing the night stuff we roughed out a plan of attack to finish and both agreed to get the cross country stuff done, a bit more time under the hood, unusual attitude/spin training, some more time at towered fields, then finish the written and it's test prep time. Weekend before last I did a 2 hour cross country to a field 53nm away and all went fine. Last weekend I scheduled myself to do the long one and the owner of the FBO called me and said I couldn't fly the 172 without an instructor, I politely explained that I had a log book endorsement to solo a 172 . Then I was told "they expire in 30 or 60 day's and when did you get that" ? My reply was that I didn't think it did expire and i got it a couple months ago (didn't think it had been 4 months and after reading it and the FAR that applies it doesn't seem to me it expires ever). Then I was hit with "our insurance requires all student pilots to have an instructor sighn them off for weather" and I explained that I knew that but I am a certificated pilot and that didn't apply to me. Another negative response "your certificate is only light sport" but no big deal I can handle that I guess, said person concludes I can fly since there is an instructor there today. I get to the airport do my preflight and an instructor who I know and really like pulls up in another plane with a student and I ask him when he's done with his student his opinion of my flying privileges. He says I am a "student pilot in a 172" and therefore need an additional endorsement on my student pilot license to actually do the cross country stuff however I don't have a student pilot license only a 3rd class medical.He then gave me an additional log book endorsement and I went and did it. So I was wondering...do I really need that and is my original solo endorsement still good ?I called the AOPA today and asked the expert on the phone and he said I have cross country privileges without it and I am inclined to believe that simply because i can't find anything in the FAR's that says otherwise as well as my instructor didn't mention he needed to do it.
Any and all input will be greatly appreciated.
P.S. I have posted this @ the AOPA forum as well
Sport pilot upgrading to private
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Jeff Tipton
- Posts: 61
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- Location: Dickson, TN
You don't really make an easy answer to this. As a sport pilot you have the following privileges;
§ 61.315 What are the privileges and limits of my sport pilot certificate?
top
(a) If you hold a sport pilot certificate you may act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft, except as specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(b) You may share the operating expenses of a flight with a passenger, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenses, or aircraft rental fees. You must pay at least half the operating expenses of the flight.
(c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:
(1) That is carrying a passenger or property for compensation or hire.
(2) For compensation or hire.
(3) In furtherance of a business.
(4) While carrying more than one passenger.
(5) At night.
(6) In Class A airspace.
(7) In Class B, C, and D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, and to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower unless you have met the requirements specified in §61.325.
(8) Outside the United States, unless you have prior authorization from the country in which you seek to operate. Your sport pilot certificate carries the limit “Holder does not meet ICAO requirements.”
(9) To demonstrate the aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer if you are an aircraft salesperson.
(10) In a passenger-carrying airlift sponsored by a charitable organization.
(11) At an altitude of more than 10,000 feet MSL.
(12) When the flight or surface visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
(13) Without visual reference to the surface.
(14) If the aircraft has a VH that exceeds 87 knots CAS, unless you have met the requirements of §61.327.
(15) Contrary to any operating limitation placed on the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft being flown.
(16) Contrary to any limit or endorsement on your pilot certificate, airman medical certificate, or any other limit or endorsement from an authorized instructor.
(17) Contrary to any restriction or limitation on your U.S. driver's license or any restriction or limitation imposed by judicial or administrative order when using your driver's license to satisfy a requirement of this part.
(18) While towing any object.
(19) As a pilot flight crew member on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
So technically you can fly cross country without an endorsement as long as it is in an aircraft that meets the definition of Light sport. The Cessna 172 does not meet the definition of Light Sport and you would need a medical and a solo endorsement to fly the Cessna 172.
§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(n) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student pilot has received:
(1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and
(2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.
As you can see from the above your solo endorsement expires every ninety days for the solo of the make and model you are endorsed for.
As to the cross country endorsement; you will need an endorsement for flying the Cessna 172 for each cross country, but you could make the cross country in a Light Sport aircraft without the endorsement and it would count for the Private Pilot certificate.
Any item that you are required to have solo could be flown in a Light Sport aircraft without an endorsement, but if you use the Cessna 172 you will need the endorsements as you are currently not rated in the Cessna 172.
§ 61.315 What are the privileges and limits of my sport pilot certificate?
top
(a) If you hold a sport pilot certificate you may act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft, except as specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(b) You may share the operating expenses of a flight with a passenger, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenses, or aircraft rental fees. You must pay at least half the operating expenses of the flight.
(c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:
(1) That is carrying a passenger or property for compensation or hire.
(2) For compensation or hire.
(3) In furtherance of a business.
(4) While carrying more than one passenger.
(5) At night.
(6) In Class A airspace.
(7) In Class B, C, and D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, and to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower unless you have met the requirements specified in §61.325.
(8) Outside the United States, unless you have prior authorization from the country in which you seek to operate. Your sport pilot certificate carries the limit “Holder does not meet ICAO requirements.”
(9) To demonstrate the aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer if you are an aircraft salesperson.
(10) In a passenger-carrying airlift sponsored by a charitable organization.
(11) At an altitude of more than 10,000 feet MSL.
(12) When the flight or surface visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
(13) Without visual reference to the surface.
(14) If the aircraft has a VH that exceeds 87 knots CAS, unless you have met the requirements of §61.327.
(15) Contrary to any operating limitation placed on the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft being flown.
(16) Contrary to any limit or endorsement on your pilot certificate, airman medical certificate, or any other limit or endorsement from an authorized instructor.
(17) Contrary to any restriction or limitation on your U.S. driver's license or any restriction or limitation imposed by judicial or administrative order when using your driver's license to satisfy a requirement of this part.
(18) While towing any object.
(19) As a pilot flight crew member on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
So technically you can fly cross country without an endorsement as long as it is in an aircraft that meets the definition of Light sport. The Cessna 172 does not meet the definition of Light Sport and you would need a medical and a solo endorsement to fly the Cessna 172.
§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(n) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student pilot has received:
(1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and
(2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.
As you can see from the above your solo endorsement expires every ninety days for the solo of the make and model you are endorsed for.
As to the cross country endorsement; you will need an endorsement for flying the Cessna 172 for each cross country, but you could make the cross country in a Light Sport aircraft without the endorsement and it would count for the Private Pilot certificate.
Any item that you are required to have solo could be flown in a Light Sport aircraft without an endorsement, but if you use the Cessna 172 you will need the endorsements as you are currently not rated in the Cessna 172.
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Jeff Tipton
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:23 pm
- Location: Dickson, TN
The Sport Pilot certificate is a new certificate that has many people scratching their head. You and I both hold "Aircraft Single Engine Land" ASEL certificates, the only difference is I am Commercial whereas you are Sport. Mind you I am not trying to put down this rating. I believe this is what the recreational pilot should have many years ago.
(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must—
(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;
(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an authorized instructor; or
(3) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.
D1 applies to you in that you are rated Aircraft Single Engine Land.
D2 applies to you in that you are receiving training for an additional pilot certificate.
D3 applies to you in that you are receiving training for the issue of a Private Pilot Certificate.
If you look at Advisory Circular 61-65E
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 61-65E.pdf
It lists the endorsements that are required for each rating or certificate that a person that is receiving training that a student or rated pilot is required to be in there logbook. Some endorsements are one time endorsements such as a tail wheel endorsement, a high performance endorsement, or a complex endorsement. In your case the endorsements you need are the solo endorsement to allow you to operate a aircraft that you are certificated to operate yet. You will endorsements, ie logbook entries to show the required dual training has been accomplished and that you have received the three hours in preparation for the private pilot check ride.
Hope this helps.
(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must—
(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;
(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an authorized instructor; or
(3) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.
D1 applies to you in that you are rated Aircraft Single Engine Land.
D2 applies to you in that you are receiving training for an additional pilot certificate.
D3 applies to you in that you are receiving training for the issue of a Private Pilot Certificate.
If you look at Advisory Circular 61-65E
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... 61-65E.pdf
It lists the endorsements that are required for each rating or certificate that a person that is receiving training that a student or rated pilot is required to be in there logbook. Some endorsements are one time endorsements such as a tail wheel endorsement, a high performance endorsement, or a complex endorsement. In your case the endorsements you need are the solo endorsement to allow you to operate a aircraft that you are certificated to operate yet. You will endorsements, ie logbook entries to show the required dual training has been accomplished and that you have received the three hours in preparation for the private pilot check ride.
Hope this helps.
I was not aware of this one! I think I the time since my last solo has expired. Do I need to do another solo again?Jeff Tipton wrote:
(2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.
As you can see from the above your solo endorsement expires every ninety days for the solo of the make and model you are endorsed for.
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Jeff Tipton
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:23 pm
- Location: Dickson, TN
Doss it depends on your situation.
If you have a student certificate then, after 90 days your instructor will need endorse your logbook again before you could fly solo again. Some instructors will endorse the back of the student certificate instead.
If you are at least a sport pilot, then the solo endorsement is not needed while flying in LSA type aircraft. You will still need a current BFR and driver a valid license or a current medical.
If you are sport pilot working on a recreational pilot certificate or higher you will a current solo endorsement to to be pilot in command of an aircraft that does not meet the LSA deifinition.
If you have a student certificate then, after 90 days your instructor will need endorse your logbook again before you could fly solo again. Some instructors will endorse the back of the student certificate instead.
If you are at least a sport pilot, then the solo endorsement is not needed while flying in LSA type aircraft. You will still need a current BFR and driver a valid license or a current medical.
If you are sport pilot working on a recreational pilot certificate or higher you will a current solo endorsement to to be pilot in command of an aircraft that does not meet the LSA deifinition.
After researching here, calling the AOPA, starting and researching a thread at the AOPA forums, and of course reading my FAR/AIM I have come to the conclusion that I can solo a C172 with a one time endorsement per 61.31(d). Since i am not a student pilot I do not have the 25 nm leash that student pilots have nor do i need any other endorsements relating to cross country flight and cross country flight planning. I also realize fully that I do not by any means have private pilot privileges and still have to fly within the sport pilot rules, ie: no night flying, no flying to Canada or Mexico, no flying above 10000 ft, no flying into towered airspace(without the needed sport pilot endorsements) etc. The people over at the AOPA forum have been great as well as Jeff here at this forum. Here is a link to the thread over there and again thanks to all who responded.
http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=55623
http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=55623
I'm not so certain about that interpretation. I'd want to talk to 610 to get their take on this (AOPA folks are nice but certainly not sport pilot experts) but since you do not have a PPL yet, and SPLs cannot act at PIC of a C172, I'm fairly certain that you would be limited to acting under student pilot privileges when acting as PIC in a C172. This would include the need for endorsements for such.
Generally the FAA asks the question, "what certificate are you exercising"? For example, I hold a commercial pilot certificate, but when I fly my C172 around the patch, I am exercising PPL privileges. When I instruct in an LSA during day VFR, I am exercising SPL privileges. When I am compensated for ferrying an LSA to a mx shop, I am exercising commercial pilot privileges. You can exercise privileges for any pilot certificate lower than what you hold, HOWEVER, you cannot mix and match privileges as you are trying to do by flying a C172 (student privileges) beyond 25nm (SPL privileges). As a sport pilot you hold privileges of both a sport pilot and a student pilot (lower rating). Only under the privileges of that lower rating can you act as PIC of the C172 but you are limited to the privileges and limitation of a student pilot when doing so.
Call 610 and check with them but I'm pretty sure this is what you'll find.
Helen
Generally the FAA asks the question, "what certificate are you exercising"? For example, I hold a commercial pilot certificate, but when I fly my C172 around the patch, I am exercising PPL privileges. When I instruct in an LSA during day VFR, I am exercising SPL privileges. When I am compensated for ferrying an LSA to a mx shop, I am exercising commercial pilot privileges. You can exercise privileges for any pilot certificate lower than what you hold, HOWEVER, you cannot mix and match privileges as you are trying to do by flying a C172 (student privileges) beyond 25nm (SPL privileges). As a sport pilot you hold privileges of both a sport pilot and a student pilot (lower rating). Only under the privileges of that lower rating can you act as PIC of the C172 but you are limited to the privileges and limitation of a student pilot when doing so.
Call 610 and check with them but I'm pretty sure this is what you'll find.
Helen
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JuliettBravo
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This is an interesting and pertinent thread as sport pilots go on towards their private pilot certification. The FAA question, "what certificate are you exercising?" and Helen's answer then makes me wonder if the pilot would also need to have a current student pilot certificate in possession (in addition to his medical certificate and endorsed logbook) while flying the C172 solo while exercising student pilot privileges (since he cannot fly a C172 solo as part of exercising his Sport Pilot Certificate privileges)? Otherwise he'd be exercising under no certificate during that particular solo time in a C172?
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Jeff Tipton
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:23 pm
- Location: Dickson, TN
Here's the answer from Jay Tevis at AFS-610, courtesy of EAA
"The proper endorsement is #62 in AC 61-65E. An important consideration when using this is that unless you put an expiration date in the endorsement it is good indefinitely. Additionally, you may want to write in any other limitations such as wind or other conditions."
I did not talk to Jay Tevis directly, however my instructor did discuss this extensively with the local DE we use. As far as I can see I'm good to go. It's a moot point now anyway. Three hours prep and it's check-ride time.
I did not talk to Jay Tevis directly, however my instructor did discuss this extensively with the local DE we use. As far as I can see I'm good to go. It's a moot point now anyway. Three hours prep and it's check-ride time.
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Jeff Tipton
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:23 pm
- Location: Dickson, TN
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Jeff Tipton
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:23 pm
- Location: Dickson, TN
As a sport pilot you would not necessarily receive a third class physical with a student certificate. Without the student certificate there would be no place to write the type of aircraft you are authorized to fly. You see technically in one sense you are not a student, you are a certified pilot.
He did the right thing. He was not sure and asked. Through the discussions an answer was arrived at that works for him. The fun begins when different representatives of the FAA interpret things differently and we are caught in the middle.
He did the right thing. He was not sure and asked. Through the discussions an answer was arrived at that works for him. The fun begins when different representatives of the FAA interpret things differently and we are caught in the middle.