In furtherance of a business....

The Federal Aviation Regulations (also know as FAR's). This is the Bible of aviation, the rules under which we operate. This is where you'll find everything you want to know about pilots and airplanes in the United States. Ask questions. Get answers.

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Merlinspop
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby Merlinspop » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:08 pm

We are all expressing our opinions and, in the end, the person whose opinion matters most is the NTSB Administrative Law Judge who would hear the case if someone is violated.

Personally, I think it very much matters what the purpose of a flight is and not just the PIC's actions during the flight (there are plenty of other FARs that deal with those!). I think the greater the cushion of time and other travel options between a flight and any sort of business activity would help in the "while I was there" sort of things (conferences, investment property, etc). The more direct the tie between a flight and a business activity, the more assuredly the risk of violation (that would be YOUR business activity... pretty much every flight furthers somebody's business... FBO's, eateries, etc).

But again... it's your ticket, use your own judgement.
- Bruce

FlyingForFun
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby FlyingForFun » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:26 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CharlieTango
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby CharlieTango » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:41 pm

drseti wrote:For one last time: it's not about financial gain. It's all about undue external pressures that might lead a Sport Pilot to attempt completing a flight that prudence would suggest ought to be canceled. My interpretation comes from more than three decades of service as a volunteer FAA Safety advisor. Believe me, pilots, I know how those folks think!


You are speaking to the intent of the reg, it was written to prevent sport pilots from flying for hire with the intention of preventing sport pilots from flying under the pressures associated with flying for hire.

The intention of the reg is a subject apart from what it takes to comply with the reg. I can't really thing about pressure as a guideline because the reg is written where furtherance of a business is the guideline.

Some think the guideline is crystal clear others see ambiguity.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:46 pm

drseti wrote:For one last time: it's not about financial gain. It's all about undue external pressures that might lead a Sport Pilot to attempt completing a flight that prudence would suggest ought to be canceled. My interpretation comes from more than three decades of service as a volunteer FAA Safety advisor. Believe me, pilots, I know how those folks think!


Here is an othe example that has nothing to do with pressure. You have a photography business and are a private pilot. You may go out and take aerial photos and sell them to a customer under 61.113 (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

Since the business is photography and not flying you can do this.

As a Sport Pilot you can't do this because of 61.315 (c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:
(3) In furtherance of a business.
Since adding aerial photograhpy to the things you offer would be furtherance of your business.

The way the limitations are written the private pilot has much more latitude in what they can do, where the Sport Pilot's flight should have no ties to business and be purely recreational.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby Nomore767 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:51 pm

'The way the limitations are written the private pilot has much more latitude in what they can do, where the Sport Pilot's flight should have no ties to business and be purely recreational."

This is the answer to the thread starter's question!

Fly your trip today as if you'll be at the hearing tomorrow explaining yourself to the various authorities (FAA, NTSB, police etc).

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby FlyingForFun » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:08 pm

Delete
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CTLSi
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby CTLSi » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:41 pm

......
Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby FlyingForFun » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:43 pm

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby FlyingForFun » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:24 pm

Delete
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Nomore767
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby Nomore767 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:49 pm

"For those that disagree, consider you have a meeting in Las Vegas. You also go down the strip and do a little gambling, and fly to Boulder airport and go boating on Lake Meade.

The FAA sorts out the meeting among all that activity and zaps you? Nah."

Ordinarily, probably nothing would happen, even IF you did intend to 'further your business' on the quiet, and yeah, who's to know? Same as if you had the flu, felt like crap, but just flew home anyway to get to your warm bed. No incident, no probe, probably the only one who knows you flew when you shouldn't is you, and you got away with it. Not saying YOU, but anyone in general.

In your example, you go to Vegas for a 'business meeting' say but , since you're there, are intending also to do some gambling and fly to Boulder and go boating. So all is well, except on landing in Boulder you blow a tire and veer off the runway and do some damage to the airplane. No one is hurt but the airport folks call the fire crew, medical, the police and notify the FAA.

So now you have a hearing with the FAA and the NTSB starts an investigation. They'll want your records, to see your license, medical/drivers license, maintenance records and airworthiness of the airplane. They'll review the damage for mechanical or pilot induced issues. Interview the passengers (if any) and bystanders. Check the weather, wind, temp, runway conditions. Talk to the tower if there is one. Look at fuel, weight and balance, flight plans etc
Then they'll interview you, ask why you were on the trip, where you'd been, how you slept, your last drink of alcohol, were drinks/drugs available in casino, on the boat etc How much sleep/rest have you had? How are things at home, depression, what meds are you on?
Compare your statements with that of your passengers, bystanders, other witnesses. If you own the plane they'll ask the maintenance shop about you, if you rent they'll talk to the school, your CFI and so on. Look at training records.

If you're 'clean' then you're good to go. If you're hiding something they'll probably find it. If you bent/broke an FAR they'll decide if you will be prosecuted. Somewhere here they might discover whether you were violating not only actual rules but also the intent of the rules/FARs. The NTSB will issue a finding of cause to the accident/incident.
Your insurance company will be interested in the outcome.

If you think I'm exaggerating or blowing smoke then I wish you well.

You may be right. The FAA may not 'zap you'. But it's your license on the line, as well as your butt. Is this another thing that you will be gambling with whilst you're on the Vegas trip?

As I said in an earlier post, fly each flight as if the above could happen. If it doesn't then you got lucky. If it does, be prepared for the above. If you're hiding something it'll get ugly very quickly and they might not be lenient of a genuine mistake or oversight on your part.

Just sayin'. In the end...it's up to you.

Jack Tyler
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby Jack Tyler » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:52 am

The two previous posts are IMO excellent and help shine a brighter light. One is about the rule book, the other about the reality of an incident. Thanks, guys.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

CTLSi
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby CTLSi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:34 am

......
Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CharlieTango
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby CharlieTango » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:55 am

Nomore767 wrote:"For those that disagree, consider you have a meeting in Las Vegas. You also go down the strip and do a little gambling, and fly to Boulder airport and go boating on Lake Meade.

The FAA sorts out the meeting among all that activity and zaps you? Nah."

Ordinarily, probably nothing would happen, even IF you did intend to 'further your business' on the quiet, and yeah, who's to know? Same as if you had the flu, felt like crap, but just flew home anyway to get to your warm bed. No incident, no probe, probably the only one who knows you flew when you shouldn't is you, and you got away with it. Not saying YOU, but anyone in general.

In your example, you go to Vegas for a 'business meeting' say but , since you're there, are intending also to do some gambling and fly to Boulder and go boating. So all is well, except on landing in Boulder you blow a tire and veer off the runway and do some damage to the airplane. No one is hurt but the airport folks call the fire crew, medical, the police and notify the FAA.

So now you have a hearing with the FAA and the NTSB starts an investigation. They'll want your records, to see your license, medical/drivers license, maintenance records and airworthiness of the airplane. They'll review the damage for mechanical or pilot induced issues. Interview the passengers (if any) and bystanders. Check the weather, wind, temp, runway conditions. Talk to the tower if there is one. Look at fuel, weight and balance, flight plans etc
Then they'll interview you, ask why you were on the trip, where you'd been, how you slept, your last drink of alcohol, were drinks/drugs available in casino, on the boat etc How much sleep/rest have you had? How are things at home, depression, what meds are you on?
Compare your statements with that of your passengers, bystanders, other witnesses. If you own the plane they'll ask the maintenance shop about you, if you rent they'll talk to the school, your CFI and so on. Look at training records.

If you're 'clean' then you're good to go. If you're hiding something they'll probably find it. If you bent/broke an FAR they'll decide if you will be prosecuted. Somewhere here they might discover whether you were violating not only actual rules but also the intent of the rules/FARs. The NTSB will issue a finding of cause to the accident/incident.
Your insurance company will be interested in the outcome.

If you think I'm exaggerating or blowing smoke then I wish you well.

You may be right. The FAA may not 'zap you'. But it's your license on the line, as well as your butt. Is this another thing that you will be gambling with whilst you're on the Vegas trip?

As I said in an earlier post, fly each flight as if the above could happen. If it doesn't then you got lucky. If it does, be prepared for the above. If you're hiding something it'll get ugly very quickly and they might not be lenient of a genuine mistake or oversight on your part.

Just sayin'. In the end...it's up to you.



More than 20 years ago the FAA took enforcement action against me, flying for hire was the reason. The Reno FSDO asked me to fly up and they picked me up and interviewed me in their offices.

My experience was quite the opposite, they couldn't have been nicer about it. I came away from the experience thinking 'what a great bunch of guys'. I was open, honest and guilty and they saw how I was pressured into something I didn't even want to do and gave me the option of picking a month where I would be without my certificate. I picked April because it was 6 months in the future and generally unflyable due to spring mountain winds.

I've had FAA inspectors stop by my hangar where I was working on my fat ultralight, they were nothing but nice and friendly when they could have given me grief.

The Reno FSDO used to have builders come talk to me when they were queried about builds to fly at high density altitude since they saw that I had experience.

I also was ramp checked in Arlington but it was a joke by an FAA official that used to work for me. No bad experiences for me, I might be inclined to answer questions?

Nomore767
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:15 pm

CharlieTango wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:"For those that disagree, consider you have a meeting in Las Vegas. You also go down the strip and do a little gambling, and fly to Boulder airport and go boating on Lake Meade.

The FAA sorts out the meeting among all that activity and zaps you? Nah."

Ordinarily, probably nothing would happen, even IF you did intend to 'further your business' on the quiet, and yeah, who's to know? Same as if you had the flu, felt like crap, but just flew home anyway to get to your warm bed. No incident, no probe, probably the only one who knows you flew when you shouldn't is you, and you got away with it. Not saying YOU, but anyone in general.

In your example, you go to Vegas for a 'business meeting' say but , since you're there, are intending also to do some gambling and fly to Boulder and go boating. So all is well, except on landing in Boulder you blow a tire and veer off the runway and do some damage to the airplane. No one is hurt but the airport folks call the fire crew, medical, the police and notify the FAA.

So now you have a hearing with the FAA and the NTSB starts an investigation. They'll want your records, to see your license, medical/drivers license, maintenance records and airworthiness of the airplane. They'll review the damage for mechanical or pilot induced issues. Interview the passengers (if any) and bystanders. Check the weather, wind, temp, runway conditions. Talk to the tower if there is one. Look at fuel, weight and balance, flight plans etc
Then they'll interview you, ask why you were on the trip, where you'd been, how you slept, your last drink of alcohol, were drinks/drugs available in casino, on the boat etc How much sleep/rest have you had? How are things at home, depression, what meds are you on?
Compare your statements with that of your passengers, bystanders, other witnesses. If you own the plane they'll ask the maintenance shop about you, if you rent they'll talk to the school, your CFI and so on. Look at training records.

If you're 'clean' then you're good to go. If you're hiding something they'll probably find it. If you bent/broke an FAR they'll decide if you will be prosecuted. Somewhere here they might discover whether you were violating not only actual rules but also the intent of the rules/FARs. The NTSB will issue a finding of cause to the accident/incident.
Your insurance company will be interested in the outcome.

If you think I'm exaggerating or blowing smoke then I wish you well.

You may be right. The FAA may not 'zap you'. But it's your license on the line, as well as your butt. Is this another thing that you will be gambling with whilst you're on the Vegas trip?

As I said in an earlier post, fly each flight as if the above could happen. If it doesn't then you got lucky. If it does, be prepared for the above. If you're hiding something it'll get ugly very quickly and they might not be lenient of a genuine mistake or oversight on your part.

Just sayin'. In the end...it's up to you.



More than 20 years ago the FAA took enforcement action against me, flying for hire was the reason. The Reno FSDO asked me to fly up and they picked me up and interviewed me in their offices.

My experience was quite the opposite, they couldn't have been nicer about it. I came away from the experience thinking 'what a great bunch of guys'. I was open, honest and guilty and they saw how I was pressured into something I didn't even want to do and gave me the option of picking a month where I would be without my certificate. I picked April because it was 6 months in the future and generally unflyable due to spring mountain winds.

I've had FAA inspectors stop by my hangar where I was working on my fat ultralight, they were nothing but nice and friendly when they could have given me grief.

The Reno FSDO used to have builders come talk to me when they were queried about builds to fly at high density altitude since they saw that I had experience.

I also was ramp checked in Arlington but it was a joke by an FAA official that used to work for me. No bad experiences for me, I might be inclined to answer questions?


I didn't say it would be a BAD experience, rather I suggested that it's what you could EXPECT. If you 'fess up, have nothing to hide, and aren't trying to beat the system you would be okay. Either way, you can EXPECT a thorough review.
Remember too, as we've seen quoted in this forum, the rules for sport flying versus PPL, CPL etc are...well, different. The 'intent' of Sport is purely for fun and recreation.

I've had my share of all types of personalities from the FAA from 'good cop/bad cop' to Mr Misery. Some aren't even popular within the FAA and get transferred for peace and quiet. Vast majority are just good guys doing their job. When I flew corporate an FO who had been fired and was pissed off called the FAA saying we were flying Part135 instead of Part 92. Two feds met us and put us through the wringer. We sat calm and quiet, answered every question, and produced every document they demanded. All this from a phony tip-off from an idiot with a grudge. They shook hands and walked off.

Again, if you fly today with the expectation of being in a hearing tomorrow with the Feds (whatever dept.) explaining everything you did, you should have nothing to worry about.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby drseti » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:17 pm

Just remember that no two FSDOs are the same. What might be a pleasant, casual discussion with one inspector can be a harrowing experience with another. When in doubt, it never hurts to err on the side of caution.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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