In furtherance of a business....

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drseti
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby drseti » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:00 pm

We can play this game forever. What if you fly your plane somewhere for maintenance - isn't that in furtherance of the mechanic's business? But, rather than engaging in reducto ad absurdum, let's just consider the spirit and intent of the rule. If the flight is for work, you need a PP and a medical. If it's just for fun, you don't. Period.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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designrs
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby designrs » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:13 pm

"Farmer sees his field" is a great example.

Scenario #1) Farmer likes to fly, so he does it several times a week. One day on the way home he happens to notice that his South field needs more water and tells his help after the flight to get it done. Most likely legal and undetectabe if there was ever an investigation.

Scenario #2) Farmer tells the whole town and everyone at the FBO that he flys every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to check his fields and what an invaluable resource his little LSA plane and Sport Pilot License are for that purpose. The neighboring fams all joke about how he circles his farm about 10 times each flight. Most likely illegal, and easily detectable if investigated.

Common sense, respect for the law, and a little discretion.

It is pretty hard to keep a secret amongst the aviation community anyway. Everybody wants to know where you are from, where you have been, and what you did there. It wouldn't take much for someone to realize, "Hey, you are LSA. I thought that you were not allowed to fly for business?" Unless of course you have a Private Pilot certificate and a medical... the LSA plane itself can fly for business purposes, but not charter, if the pilot is appropriately rated. Correct?

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby drseti » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:42 pm

designrs wrote: the LSA plane itself can fly for business purposes, but not charter, if the pilot is appropriately rated. Correct?


That's the way I read it, Richard.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
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FlyingForFun
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby FlyingForFun » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:45 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby CTLSi » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:50 pm

......
Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby drseti » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:07 pm

FlyingForFun wrote:Once again, you don't know what you are talking about.


Come now, let's keep it civil. The most we can say is that he's misinterpreted the rules (there, I said it). This is settled case law - the FAA has already clearly prohibited air-commuting by Sport Pilots, so pleading ignorance is probably a losing strategy.

You don't have to take my word for it. If you're an AOPA member, call their Pilot Protective Services hotline and ask a legal expert.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby CharlieTango » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:41 am

3Dreaming wrote:
CharlieTango wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: A farmer checking his field to see if he needs to replant or fertilize ... if you stand to make money from something totally unrelated because of the flight, it would be in furtherance of a business.



What if the farmer views this field while on a recreational flight?


I guess it would depend on if he acted on what he saw, but he would be the only one to know. I doubt he would report himself if it did happen. You can throw all kinds of "what ifs" out there if you want, but sometimes only the pilot will know the answer.


Isn't the purpose of a flight determined before you depart? I depart for a scenic flight but because I acted on what I saw the purpose changed?

If you see some stock in distress you cannot act on it if you don't have a medical?

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:16 am

CharlieTango wrote:I guess it would depend on if he acted on what he saw, but he would be the only one to know. I doubt he would report himself if it did happen. You can throw all kinds of "what ifs" out there if you want, but sometimes only the pilot will know the answer.


Isn't the purpose of a flight determined before you depart? I depart for a scenic flight but because I acted on what I saw the purpose changed?

If you see some stock in distress you cannot act on it if you don't have a medical?[/quote]

I looked at the limitations in 31.315, and didnt see anything about the purpose of the flight. It just says he can't act as PIC in futherance of a business. Should he act on what he saw, I would say yes. Was it contrary to the regulations? Most likely.

If the farmer takes off for a quick evening flight, and sees some smoke in the distance and decides he needs to check it out. Because he went and checked it out it is now night when he comes back to land. Wouldn't that be against his limitations too? The purpose of the flight before departure was not to fly at night, but that is what happened.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby CharlieTango » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:56 am

Flying at night is not a furtherance of business violation, your example has nothing to do with purpose of flight but instead poor flight planning and an unwillingness to land before dark.

Seeing smoke and checking it out is a natural part of recreational flying.

Gray areas exist, many circumstances are not debatable and many are. Acting on what you saw while conducting a recreational flight doesn't change the purpose of the flight.

If I am traveling by car or plane if I see a new construction project while en-route I will make a mental note and follow up. If you win this argument you will have me flying around under a hood so I do not inadvertently see something that might benefit me financially.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby drseti » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:22 am

For one last time: it's not about financial gain. It's all about undue external pressures that might lead a Sport Pilot to attempt completing a flight that prudence would suggest ought to be canceled. My interpretation comes from more than three decades of service as a volunteer FAA Safety advisor. Believe me, pilots, I know how those folks think!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:37 am

CharlieTango wrote:Flying at night is not a furtherance of business violation, your example has nothing to do with purpose of flight but instead poor flight planning and an unwillingness to land before dark.

Seeing smoke and checking it out is a natural part of recreational flying.

Gray areas exist, many circumstances are not debatable and many are. Acting on what you saw while conducting a recreational flight doesn't change the purpose of the flight.

If I am traveling by car or plane if I see a new construction project while en-route I will make a mental note and follow up. If you win this argument you will have me flying around under a hood so I do not inadvertently see something that might benefit me financially.


I know that flying at night is not "in furtherance of a business", but they are both limitations listed under 61.315 for a sport pilot. The point I was trying to get across is that the purpose of the flight has nothing to do with the limitation, but rather it is what you do as PIC on the flight that counts.

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby Jack Tyler » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:43 am

Despite the OP's genuine interest in getting more clarity about IFOB for SPs, this is another of those topics where forums aren't the best source of A's to the Q. Lots of good logic, well articulated, is on display...but I think we all know the 'after the incident' view the FAA will hold of a given event is not fully defined here.

" If you're an AOPA member, call their Pilot Protective Services hotline and ask a legal expert."
That's certainly a step in the right direction. That's why I have carried this coverage - and in one case, benefited by it. They know more than 99% of us about the case law, and that's where the prior interpretations lie. Maybe you won't get the sharpened #2 pencil answer but it will be close to that. Even better, you can ask 'what if' Q's that relate specifically to the kinds of circumstances you may face.

Like other such discussions, what's missing is some of the context. If the farmer occasionally flies over his field for land management purposes and ends up needing to report a damaged a/c due to an off-airport landing, what's the farmer going to say about the flight when asked? If I fly to Vegas to meet a client and have a reportable problem along the way, what info about the purpose of the flight am I going to volunteer? I don't need to lie but I also don't need to help tighten the noose.

And in that regard, there was a recommendation on AvWeb not long ago to view an on-line legal seminar co-conducted by a liability attorney who reps pilots and an FAA inspector who does incident investigations. (Anyone remember that link?) The bottom line from the attorney? Say nothing. Volunteer nothing. If you think you need to say something e.g. to show a cooperative attitude and avoid appearing hostile, consult an attorney first so you get a second opinion about how necessary it is to offer that information. There is nothing - and the entertainment in the seminar was watching the attorney take the most innocuous and factually helpful pilot statements and turn them into FAA weapons - you can say that can't end up being used against you if that's the orientation the investigator chooses to take. The FAA investigator's comments? He disagreed with nothing the attorney stated, only putting a reasoned FAA perspective on why they ask the Q's they do and what their goals are when an incident needs investigating.

Let's be careful out there. And let's also not be stupid if we have an 'oops'.
Jack
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby drseti » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:49 am

OK, pilots, we've now beaten this horse well beyond death. This thread is hereby locked. Thanks for everybody's participation. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby drseti » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:45 am

I guess I was premature. A couple of you PM'd me with some good points that hadn't yet been made. OK, thread is hereby re-opend, but please be civil, and let's try not to repeat ourselves.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

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Re: In furtherance of a business....

Postby designrs » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:49 am

Part II - The boys want to have at it! LOL


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