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Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:53 pm
by dstclair
interpret it that I am OK flying with Sport Pilot privileges without a medical as long as I have 3 miles visibility and I can see the ground at all times.
Assuming a single layer, how does a broken layer prevent you from seeing the ground at all times if you're flying 1K minimum above?

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:55 pm
by FlyingForFun
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Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:29 pm
by FlyingForFun
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Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:43 pm
by Jim Stewart
FlyingForFun wrote: I would stay below any broken ceiling. YRMV.
Just to be pedantic, the only "ceiling" is underneath an overcast layer.

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:47 pm
by FlyingForFun
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Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:53 pm
by Merlinspop
Either way, I suppose that's why the FAA didn't specify a cloud cover category and used a vague phrase. Maybe they're leaving it up to the pilot's judgement. Or waiting until a judge has an opportunity to rule on it.

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:53 pm
by Jim Stewart
FlyingForFun wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote:
FlyingForFun wrote: I would stay below any broken ceiling. YRMV.
Just to be pedantic, the only "ceiling" is underneath an overcast layer.
I'm pretty sure a broken layer constitutes a ceiling. I will check.

"Ceiling
The height above the earth's surface of the lowest layer that is reported as broken or overcast; or, if the sky is totally obscured, the vertical visibility shall be the ceiling."
Thank you. I had my BFR two days ago and the instructor said overcast only when this came up. I assumed he was correct.

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:57 pm
by FlyingForFun
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Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:07 pm
by CharlieTango
FlyingForFun wrote:
Merlinspop wrote:... I think it's just a poorly written rule...
How about 2,000' AGL for an exception to the 10,000' limitation? What does this limitation mean? I've heard many conflicting answers.

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:11 pm
by FlyingForFun
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Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:21 pm
by CTLSi
......

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:22 pm
by drseti
Jim Stewart wrote:Just to be pedantic, the only "ceiling" is underneath an overcast layer.
Actually, broken or overcast.

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:12 pm
by CharlieTango
FlyingForFun wrote:When we're flying around most of the USA, we can't fly above 10,000 MSL. If we're flying over a 11,000 MSL mountain, we can fly up to 13,000 MSL. Of course then you get into all the requirements for oxygen which I have forgotten.
When can you climb to 13,000 and when do you have to descend? You generally cannot climb or descend at the same angle as the terrain, so what does the limitation mean? Can you climb to 13,000' prior to reaching the 11,000' terrain?

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:16 pm
by FlyingForFun
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Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:12 am
by CharlieTango
FlyingForFun wrote:I don't know, but usually good judgment should prevail. I think you should be able to calculate your rate of climb at that altitude and arrive at the higher altitude at a reasonable time and distance before you got there. The descent would probably be easier to manage. I wouldn't try getting to altitude 50 nm and 30 minutes before you need to. On the other hand, you shouldn't have to make climbing 360's 5nm away getting to altitude. I would probably always use flight following flying out there.

I've never flown in that situation, but one thing you might consider is calling ATC and advising them you are going to begin your climb above 10,000 MSL to X altitude to clear the mountains ahead. I would always use flight following flying out there.
You can't get ATC unless you climb to 13,000' 1st. Wouldn't advising ATC that you are busting you altitude limitation be a good way to seek enforcement?

When I need to go above 10,000 in a flight it happens more than once, should I have to climb then descend and climb and descend and climb ...etc?