Without visual reference to the surface

The Federal Aviation Regulations (also know as FAR's). This is the Bible of aviation, the rules under which we operate. This is where you'll find everything you want to know about pilots and airplanes in the United States. Ask questions. Get answers.

Moderator: drseti

User avatar
dstclair
Posts: 1024
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 am
Location: Allen, TX

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby dstclair » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:53 pm

interpret it that I am OK flying with Sport Pilot privileges without a medical as long as I have 3 miles visibility and I can see the ground at all times.


Assuming a single layer, how does a broken layer prevent you from seeing the ground at all times if you're flying 1K minimum above?
dave

FlyingForFun
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby FlyingForFun » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:55 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FlyingForFun
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby FlyingForFun » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:29 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jim Stewart
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:49 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby Jim Stewart » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:43 pm

FlyingForFun wrote: I would stay below any broken ceiling. YRMV.


Just to be pedantic, the only "ceiling" is underneath an overcast layer.
PP-ASEL, Flight Design CTSW owner.

FlyingForFun
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby FlyingForFun » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:47 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Merlinspop
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:48 pm
Location: WV Eastern Panhandle

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby Merlinspop » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:53 pm

Either way, I suppose that's why the FAA didn't specify a cloud cover category and used a vague phrase. Maybe they're leaving it up to the pilot's judgement. Or waiting until a judge has an opportunity to rule on it.
- Bruce

Jim Stewart
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:49 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby Jim Stewart » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:53 pm

FlyingForFun wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote:
FlyingForFun wrote: I would stay below any broken ceiling. YRMV.


Just to be pedantic, the only "ceiling" is underneath an overcast layer.
I'm pretty sure a broken layer constitutes a ceiling. I will check.

"Ceiling
The height above the earth's surface of the lowest layer that is reported as broken or overcast; or, if the sky is totally obscured, the vertical visibility shall be the ceiling."


Thank you. I had my BFR two days ago and the instructor said overcast only when this came up. I assumed he was correct.
PP-ASEL, Flight Design CTSW owner.

FlyingForFun
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby FlyingForFun » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:57 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CharlieTango
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby CharlieTango » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:07 pm

FlyingForFun wrote:
Merlinspop wrote:... I think it's just a poorly written rule...


How about 2,000' AGL for an exception to the 10,000' limitation? What does this limitation mean? I've heard many conflicting answers.

FlyingForFun
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby FlyingForFun » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:11 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

CTLSi
Posts: 783
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby CTLSi » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:21 pm

......
Last edited by CTLSi on Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5778
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby drseti » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:22 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:Just to be pedantic, the only "ceiling" is underneath an overcast layer.


Actually, broken or overcast.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

User avatar
CharlieTango
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby CharlieTango » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:12 pm

FlyingForFun wrote:When we're flying around most of the USA, we can't fly above 10,000 MSL. If we're flying over a 11,000 MSL mountain, we can fly up to 13,000 MSL. Of course then you get into all the requirements for oxygen which I have forgotten.


When can you climb to 13,000 and when do you have to descend? You generally cannot climb or descend at the same angle as the terrain, so what does the limitation mean? Can you climb to 13,000' prior to reaching the 11,000' terrain?

FlyingForFun
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 pm

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby FlyingForFun » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:16 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CharlieTango
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Postby CharlieTango » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:12 am

FlyingForFun wrote:I don't know, but usually good judgment should prevail. I think you should be able to calculate your rate of climb at that altitude and arrive at the higher altitude at a reasonable time and distance before you got there. The descent would probably be easier to manage. I wouldn't try getting to altitude 50 nm and 30 minutes before you need to. On the other hand, you shouldn't have to make climbing 360's 5nm away getting to altitude. I would probably always use flight following flying out there.

I've never flown in that situation, but one thing you might consider is calling ATC and advising them you are going to begin your climb above 10,000 MSL to X altitude to clear the mountains ahead. I would always use flight following flying out there.


You can't get ATC unless you climb to 13,000' 1st. Wouldn't advising ATC that you are busting you altitude limitation be a good way to seek enforcement?

When I need to go above 10,000 in a flight it happens more than once, should I have to climb then descend and climb and descend and climb ...etc?


Return to “FARs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests