Sport Pilot Talk

I was thinking this morning (scary thought) - the Sport Pilot rule "allows sharing (“pro-rata”) operating expenses with another pilot,"* (citation below) and started wondering.....if call my buddy and say "let's go to the Holy Waters and do a little fly fishing" and he responds back - "ooohhh yeah...that is EXACTLY what I need, but you know what? What would make it better is if we flew up and we shot a bunch of photos of the river where we like to fish instead of driving." (which would actually be REALLY cool - even better in the fall or winter once the leaves are off the tree...but I digress)

My response (being the cheap SOB that I am) would be "OK!! Let's go, but if we do, we've got to split the cost of the trip....that 0-200 isn't going to rebuild itself some day." (for the record, when we fish together, we share gas/food expenses).

Or.....more common - somebody calls and says "can I go for a ride in your airplane the next time you go up?" Me (again, being the cheap SOB that I am): "sure, if you're willing to split the costs with me, I'd love to have you along"

I have not looked up the actual FAR, nor have I contacted anyone else - I'm just sittin' at my desk, drinking my coffee and dreaming of flying.....literally....I fell asleep thinking of flying and woke from a dream about flying this morning. I figured this would be a good topic to discuss, share and debate the merits of.

So....does the rule "sharing pro-rata expenses with another PILOT (emphasis mine) mean you can only share the costs with another certificated PILOT or does that mean you can share with the guy in the right seat?



*http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/final_r ... opsis.html

61.315 says you may share with a passenger not pilot. So any Joe sitting in the other seat may share. That being said, it has always my understanding that you can not request that they share, and they can not pay for more than their portion. I know that is also the same opinion that the DPE we use has. Tom

So basically, they've got to volunteer (hypothetically) to pay half, otherwise it would be soliciting the payment which could be considered either a commercial venture or a furtherance of a business?

Not looking for a legal opinion....I just like talking in hypotheticals.

Windknot wrote:that 0-200 isn't going to rebuild itself some day."

As far as the FAA is concerned, the O-200 is going to rebuild itself. The FARs specify that you can only share the direct costs of the specific flight. That is, fuel, tiedown, ramp fees, and landing fees for this particular trip, plus aircraft rental costs if you had to rent the plane. If it's your own plane, you cannot charge for wear and tear, TBO allowance, or a pro-rata share of the annual inspection, insurance, or hangar. Only for direct expenses.

A better approach would be for your buddy to get a pilot's license, and become your partner in the purchase of an airplane. That way, all expenses can be shared.

Here's another wrinkle. As a CFI, I am allowed limited commercial operation of an LSA -- that is, flight instruction for hire, and rental at the prevailing market rate. Why don't you become a flight instructor? That way, when you take your buddy fishing, you can be providing instruction, and charge whatever you want! (Of course, your plane then needs to be insured for commercial operation, and is subject to 100 hour inspections, and mandatory compliance with Service Bulletins and TBO recommendations -- so you might end up spending more than you take in. Which, generally, is the nature of all aviation businesses...)

drseti wrote:Here's another wrinkle. As a CFI, I am allowed limited commercial operation of an LSA -- that is, flight instruction for hire, and rental at the prevailing market rate. Why don't you become a flight instructor? That way, when you take your buddy fishing, you can be providing instruction, and charge whatever you want! (Of course, your plane then needs to be insured for commercial operation, and is subject to 100 hour inspections, and mandatory compliance with Service Bulletins and TBO recommendations -- so you might end up spending more than you take in. Which, generally, is the nature of all aviation businesses...)

Paul, can you provide the regulation number for those items I highlighted?

3Dreaming wrote:Paul, can you provide the regulation number for those items I highlighted?

And to add to that, the 100 hour inspection is only required for instruction, not rental.

But.......

It seems like this is a constant battle for one step forward and two steps back - no wonder there is an 80% non-completion rate for pilots finishing their training.

Dont get me wrong, I'll navigate the hoops and hurdles because I want to fly no matter what - but if the Sport Pilot ticket was designed to lower the barriers to entry into General Aviation....somebody SOMEWHERE got SOMETHING wrong!!!

I'll probably extend this into another post concerning financing and the financial aspects of LSA ownership (great title isn't it?), but for Paul and others - could you give me a rough idea of increased costs associated with "aviation business." I own my own investment advisory business, and am not afraid of a little entrepreneurial challenge.... (admittedly knowing full well that the income wont be greater than the expenses)

What could one expect for additional costs (percentage-wise over par) associated with:

a. Taking say...a Jabiru J250 and just renting it to others
b. Taking the J250 and getting my CFI and training others in it

And on a different note - if I'm a Sport Pilot Ticket holder, do I need Medical, PPL etc to

3Dreaming wrote:Paul, can you provide the regulation number for those items I highlighted?

That's going to require a longer response than I have time for right now, Tom. I'll post something tonight.

KSCessnaDriver wrote:, the 100 hour inspection is only required for instruction, not rental.

Not sure that's correct. When my students rent a plane to fly their checkride, the DPE has them show the logbooks, to determine that the plane is in 100 hr. If not, he won't fly the checkride with them! (and the student is only renting the plane; a checkride does not constitute instruction.)

Windknot wrote:if the Sport Pilot ticket was designed to lower the barriers to entry into General Aviation....somebody SOMEWHERE got SOMETHING wrong!!!

The fallacy in your thinking is believing the FAA intended SP to lower barriers to entry. That was not their objective at all. I believe their real purpose was to bring unregistered Part 103 ultralights, and unlicensed ultralight pilots, under their regulatory umbrella.

post 9/11 I was at a briefing (i'm ex law enforcement) and a fed of one variety or another was discussing possible threats and he threw some outrageously large number of "unregistered, undocumented" aircraft that were all now considered possible treats - he was of course talking about the UL's.

SP has always been described to me by proponents as lowering the barrier for entrance into GA.

Either way, it's still a HUGE PITA!!!

As for my other questions - after digging through many old posts - I think I have an easier answer for you than you may have planned.

"DONT DO IT"

Financing, insuring a new/newish LSA for occasional CFI use by me is unrealistic. I'd much rather spend my time and energy telling lies and swapping stories around the hangar or up in the air checking off my lists of places to go out and back on full fuel. (There's lots). If my wife wants to come....I'll use her credit card to pay for the gas!!!

Windknot wrote:What could one expect for additional costs (percentage-wise over par) associated with:

a. Taking say...a Jabiru J250 and just renting it to others
b. Taking the J250 and getting my CFI and training others in it

Take a look at my first two Annual Reports for one flight school's experience:
Http://avsport.org/about and scroll down to Annual Reports

Yes....I just did. See above!!!

You sir...are a wealth of REALLY GOOD information!!! I wish I lived closer to PA!!!!