Sharing of pro-rata operating expenses???

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Windknot
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Sharing of pro-rata operating expenses???

Postby Windknot » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:08 am

I was thinking this morning (scary thought) - the Sport Pilot rule "allows sharing (“pro-rata”) operating expenses with another pilot,"* (citation below) and started wondering.....if call my buddy and say "let's go to the Holy Waters and do a little fly fishing" and he responds back - "ooohhh yeah...that is EXACTLY what I need, but you know what? What would make it better is if we flew up and we shot a bunch of photos of the river where we like to fish instead of driving." (which would actually be REALLY cool - even better in the fall or winter once the leaves are off the tree...but I digress)

My response (being the cheap SOB that I am) would be "OK!! Let's go, but if we do, we've got to split the cost of the trip....that 0-200 isn't going to rebuild itself some day." (for the record, when we fish together, we share gas/food expenses).

Or.....more common - somebody calls and says "can I go for a ride in your airplane the next time you go up?" Me (again, being the cheap SOB that I am): "sure, if you're willing to split the costs with me, I'd love to have you along"

I have not looked up the actual FAR, nor have I contacted anyone else - I'm just sittin' at my desk, drinking my coffee and dreaming of flying.....literally....I fell asleep thinking of flying and woke from a dream about flying this morning. I figured this would be a good topic to discuss, share and debate the merits of.

So....does the rule "sharing pro-rata expenses with another PILOT (emphasis mine) mean you can only share the costs with another certificated PILOT or does that mean you can share with the guy in the right seat?



*http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/final_rule_synopsis.html
Early time Sport Pilot Student after 40 years of dreaming!!!! Now I need to find a plane I fit in!!!

3Dreaming
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Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:32 am

61.315 says you may share with a passenger not pilot. So any Joe sitting in the other seat may share. That being said, it has always my understanding that you can not request that they share, and they can not pay for more than their portion. I know that is also the same opinion that the DPE we use has. Tom

Windknot
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Thanks

Postby Windknot » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:03 am

So basically, they've got to volunteer (hypothetically) to pay half, otherwise it would be soliciting the payment which could be considered either a commercial venture or a furtherance of a business?

Not looking for a legal opinion....I just like talking in hypotheticals.
Early time Sport Pilot Student after 40 years of dreaming!!!! Now I need to find a plane I fit in!!!

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drseti
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Re: Sharing of pro-rata operating expenses???

Postby drseti » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:18 am

Windknot wrote:that 0-200 isn't going to rebuild itself some day."


As far as the FAA is concerned, the O-200 is going to rebuild itself. The FARs specify that you can only share the direct costs of the specific flight. That is, fuel, tiedown, ramp fees, and landing fees for this particular trip, plus aircraft rental costs if you had to rent the plane. If it's your own plane, you cannot charge for wear and tear, TBO allowance, or a pro-rata share of the annual inspection, insurance, or hangar. Only for direct expenses.

A better approach would be for your buddy to get a pilot's license, and become your partner in the purchase of an airplane. That way, all expenses can be shared.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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Postby drseti » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:24 am

Here's another wrinkle. As a CFI, I am allowed limited commercial operation of an LSA -- that is, flight instruction for hire, and rental at the prevailing market rate. Why don't you become a flight instructor? That way, when you take your buddy fishing, you can be providing instruction, and charge whatever you want! (Of course, your plane then needs to be insured for commercial operation, and is subject to 100 hour inspections, and mandatory compliance with Service Bulletins and TBO recommendations -- so you might end up spending more than you take in. Which, generally, is the nature of all aviation businesses...)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

3Dreaming
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Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:42 pm

drseti wrote:Here's another wrinkle. As a CFI, I am allowed limited commercial operation of an LSA -- that is, flight instruction for hire, and rental at the prevailing market rate. Why don't you become a flight instructor? That way, when you take your buddy fishing, you can be providing instruction, and charge whatever you want! (Of course, your plane then needs to be insured for commercial operation, and is subject to 100 hour inspections, and mandatory compliance with Service Bulletins and TBO recommendations -- so you might end up spending more than you take in. Which, generally, is the nature of all aviation businesses...)


Paul, can you provide the regulation number for those items I highlighted?

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Postby KSCessnaDriver » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:49 pm

3Dreaming wrote:Paul, can you provide the regulation number for those items I highlighted?


And to add to that, the 100 hour inspection is only required for instruction, not rental.
KSCessnaDriver (ATP MEL, Commerical LTA-Airship/SEL, Private SES, CFI/CFII)
LSA's flown: Remos G3, Flight Design CTSW, Aeronca L-16, Jabiru J170

Windknot
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All Great Answers.....

Postby Windknot » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:58 am

But.......

It seems like this is a constant battle for one step forward and two steps back - no wonder there is an 80% non-completion rate for pilots finishing their training.

Dont get me wrong, I'll navigate the hoops and hurdles because I want to fly no matter what - but if the Sport Pilot ticket was designed to lower the barriers to entry into General Aviation....somebody SOMEWHERE got SOMETHING wrong!!!
Early time Sport Pilot Student after 40 years of dreaming!!!! Now I need to find a plane I fit in!!!

Windknot
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Follow-ups....

Postby Windknot » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:21 am

I'll probably extend this into another post concerning financing and the financial aspects of LSA ownership (great title isn't it?), but for Paul and others - could you give me a rough idea of increased costs associated with "aviation business." I own my own investment advisory business, and am not afraid of a little entrepreneurial challenge.... (admittedly knowing full well that the income wont be greater than the expenses)

What could one expect for additional costs (percentage-wise over par) associated with:

a. Taking say...a Jabiru J250 and just renting it to others
b. Taking the J250 and getting my CFI and training others in it

And on a different note - if I'm a Sport Pilot Ticket holder, do I need Medical, PPL etc to
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Postby drseti » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:13 am

3Dreaming wrote:Paul, can you provide the regulation number for those items I highlighted?


That's going to require a longer response than I have time for right now, Tom. I'll post something tonight.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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Postby drseti » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:17 am

KSCessnaDriver wrote:, the 100 hour inspection is only required for instruction, not rental.


Not sure that's correct. When my students rent a plane to fly their checkride, the DPE has them show the logbooks, to determine that the plane is in 100 hr. If not, he won't fly the checkride with them! (and the student is only renting the plane; a checkride does not constitute instruction.)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

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Re: All Great Answers.....

Postby drseti » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:22 am

Windknot wrote:if the Sport Pilot ticket was designed to lower the barriers to entry into General Aviation....somebody SOMEWHERE got SOMETHING wrong!!!


The fallacy in your thinking is believing the FAA intended SP to lower barriers to entry. That was not their objective at all. I believe their real purpose was to bring unregistered Part 103 ultralights, and unlicensed ultralight pilots, under their regulatory umbrella.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

Windknot
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Come to think of it...

Postby Windknot » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:28 am

post 9/11 I was at a briefing (i'm ex law enforcement) and a fed of one variety or another was discussing possible threats and he threw some outrageously large number of "unregistered, undocumented" aircraft that were all now considered possible treats - he was of course talking about the UL's.

SP has always been described to me by proponents as lowering the barrier for entrance into GA.

Either way, it's still a HUGE PITA!!!

As for my other questions - after digging through many old posts - I think I have an easier answer for you than you may have planned.

"DONT DO IT"

Financing, insuring a new/newish LSA for occasional CFI use by me is unrealistic. I'd much rather spend my time and energy telling lies and swapping stories around the hangar or up in the air checking off my lists of places to go out and back on full fuel. (There's lots). If my wife wants to come....I'll use her credit card to pay for the gas!!!
Early time Sport Pilot Student after 40 years of dreaming!!!! Now I need to find a plane I fit in!!!

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Re: Follow-ups....

Postby drseti » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:30 am

Windknot wrote:What could one expect for additional costs (percentage-wise over par) associated with:

a. Taking say...a Jabiru J250 and just renting it to others
b. Taking the J250 and getting my CFI and training others in it


Take a look at my first two Annual Reports for one flight school's experience:
Http://avsport.org/about and scroll down to Annual Reports
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

Windknot
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YUP

Postby Windknot » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:31 am

Yes....I just did. See above!!!

You sir...are a wealth of REALLY GOOD information!!! I wish I lived closer to PA!!!!
Early time Sport Pilot Student after 40 years of dreaming!!!! Now I need to find a plane I fit in!!!


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