Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

H. Paul Shuch is a Light Sport Repairman with Maintenance ratings for airplanes, gliders, weight shift control, and powered parachutes, as well as an independent Rotax Maintenance Technician at the Heavy Maintenance level. He holds a PhD in Air Transportation Engineering from the University of California, and serves as Director of Maintenance for AvSport of Lock Haven.

Moderator: drseti

TimTaylor
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by TimTaylor »

It describes what is required. You should read it.

If your aircraft does not have a current and correct documentation of weight and balance, it is not airworthy and illegal to fly.
Retired from flying.
3Dreaming
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by 3Dreaming »

Like I said before what rules to follow depends on the airplane.

For a SLSA you must follow 91.327, (d) Each person operating an aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category must operate the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions, including any provisions for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft's equipment list.
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.

For any aircraft 91.9 (a) applies. You must comply with the operating limitations. Gross weight and center of gravity are limitations you must comply with. How can you comply with the limitation if you don't have an up to date valid starting point for your computations? That right there is the basis for needing an up to date weight and balance for the airplane with the current equipment installed.

For the weight and balance needing to be in the airplane that is a little trickier. If the airplane is required to have a AFM by CFR 21.5, then the W&B must be in the airplane. If not you still must have a W&B, but it can be with the aircraft records.
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by MrMorden »

TimTaylor wrote:It describes what is required. You should read it.

If your aircraft does not have a current and correct documentation of weight and balance, it is not airworthy and illegal to fly.
I have read it. It says an equipment change requires a change to the POH/AFM W&B info. It does not cite an FAR or AC requiring this. It also says nothing about a W&B document being required for each flight.

Again, this is an FAA training document, not a regulatory document. If it's not in an FAR, AC, or letter of interpretation, it's not a requirement.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
TimTaylor
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by TimTaylor »

3Dreaming wrote:Like I said before what rules to follow depends on the airplane.

For a SLSA you must follow 91.327, (d) Each person operating an aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category must operate the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions, including any provisions for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft's equipment list.
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.

For any aircraft 91.9 (a) applies. You must comply with the operating limitations. Gross weight and center of gravity are limitations you must comply with. How can you comply with the limitation if you don't have an up to date valid starting point for your computations? That right there is the basis for needing an up to date weight and balance for the airplane with the current equipment installed.

For the weight and balance needing to be in the airplane that is a little trickier. If the airplane is required to have a AFM by CFR 21.5, then the W&B must be in the airplane. If not you still must have a W&B, but it can be with the aircraft records.
Retired from flying.
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by MrMorden »

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Like I said before what rules to follow depends on the airplane.

For a SLSA you must follow 91.327, (d) Each person operating an aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category must operate the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions, including any provisions for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft's equipment list.
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.

For any aircraft 91.9 (a) applies. You must comply with the operating limitations. Gross weight and center of gravity are limitations you must comply with. How can you comply with the limitation if you don't have an up to date valid starting point for your computations? That right there is the basis for needing an up to date weight and balance for the airplane with the current equipment installed.

For the weight and balance needing to be in the airplane that is a little trickier. If the airplane is required to have a AFM by CFR 21.5, then the W&B must be in the airplane. If not you still must have a W&B, but it can be with the aircraft records.
So it's up to the SLSA manufacturer to decide...that makes sense in the ASTM Universe. In the CTLS case, it says you have to determine W&B before each flight. It doesn't say you have to document that anywhere. I can't find any language in my POH other than explaining how to calculate W&B.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
TimTaylor
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by TimTaylor »

You are still confusing the weight and balance requirements for aircraft certification and to maintain airworthy condition with the weight and balance calculations a pilot should do before a flight. They are two different things. There is no requirement for you, the pilot, to document your flight weight and balance based on aircraft loading. There is a requirement for your airplane to have a current and accurate weight and balance document based on it's certification plus any additions, deletions, or modifications, etc. If you don't have that, how do you do any weight and balance calculations before a flight?
Retired from flying.
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by MrMorden »

TimTaylor wrote:You are still confusing the weight and balance requirements for aircraft certification and to maintain airworthy condition with the weight and balance calculations a pilot should do before a flight. They are two different things. There is no requirement for you, the pilot, to document your flight weight and balance based on aircraft loading. There is a requirement for your airplane to have a current and accurate weight and balance document based on it's certification plus any additions, deletions, or modifications, etc. If you don't have that, how do you do any weight and balance calculations before a flight?
I'm not confused. That's what I've been saying about pilot and per flight requirements. But regarding updated W&B for the aircraft, I don't see any requirement other than the Part 23 requirement that a W&B/equipment list document be provided by the factory. Can you tell me where an updated W&B document with an equipment change is required, other than for an SLSA where the manufacture POH requires it? If such a requirement exists, if the installation is less than one pound then a new W&B not required, though an updated equipment list would be, if the requirement exists.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
User avatar
dstclair
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 am
Location: Allen, TX

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by dstclair »

From Andy:
In the CTLS case, it says you have to determine W&B before each flight. It doesn't say you have to document that anywhere. I can't find any language in my POH other than explaining how to calculate W&B.
From Tom:
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.
I believe Tom is saying there is a CTLS requirement to document and log W&B after changes.
dave
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by MrMorden »

dstclair wrote:From Andy:
In the CTLS case, it says you have to determine W&B before each flight. It doesn't say you have to document that anywhere. I can't find any language in my POH other than explaining how to calculate W&B.
From Tom:
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.
I believe Tom is saying there is a CTLS requirement to document and log W&B after changes.
What he said is airplane *weight* must be documented in the logbook, and that the CG must be calculated before each flight. It doesn't say the calculated CG has to be documented.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
3Dreaming
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by 3Dreaming »

Andy, here you go. Look at Note 1.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... LE/7g1.PDF

I am sure this is not the only aircraft with this requirement.
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by MrMorden »

3Dreaming wrote:Andy, here you go. Look at Note 1.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... LE/7g1.PDF

I am sure this is not the only aircraft with this requirement.
Sure, but we're trying to determine what the FAA requires, and not an individual manufacturer...
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
3Dreaming
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by 3Dreaming »

CFR 43.5 (c) If a repair or an alteration results in any change in the aircraft operating limitations or flight data contained in the approved aircraft flight manual, those operating limitations or flight data are appropriately revised and set forth as prescribed in §91.9 of this chapter.

I think empty weight and empty weight CG would be considered flight data.
3Dreaming
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by 3Dreaming »

MrMorden wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Andy, here you go. Look at Note 1.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... LE/7g1.PDF

I am sure this is not the only aircraft with this requirement.
Sure, but we're trying to determine what the FAA requires, and not an individual manufacturer...
In this case the FAA requires just what Note 1 says. That is a FAA document, and a FAA requirement for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate for that aircraft. If you do not comply with that requirement, and all others contained in the TCDS the FAA issued airworthiness certificate will become invalid.
TimTaylor
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by TimTaylor »

Retired from flying.
Wm.Ince
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:27 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL

Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B

Post by Wm.Ince »

Bill Ince
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
Post Reply