100LL

H. Paul Shuch is a Light Sport Repairman with Maintenance ratings for airplanes, gliders, weight shift control, and powered parachutes, as well as an independent Rotax Maintenance Technician at the Heavy Maintenance level. He holds a PhD in Air Transportation Engineering from the University of California, and serves as Director of Maintenance for AvSport of Lock Haven.

Moderator: drseti

FlyAgain
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:00 pm

100LL

Post by FlyAgain »

I see my local airport (KFLY) has produced a set of bylaws laying down the gauntlet that "no owner shall bring gasoline onto the fold." Period. Dot, No discussion. Do not ask. Etc. Sort of blows the idea of the 30 gallon fuel caddy idea. The issue seems to stem from protecting the profits of the fuel seller not safety concerns.

Down the street is a one-off gas station that sells high octane ethanol free MOGAS. The airport is 100LL only of course, I see number of threads on workarounds with fuel additives and increased frequency of engine overhauls, etc. Has anyone just bit the bullet and burning 100LL Avgas in their Rotax engines 100% of the time? Still can't believe Rotax made a car gas engine when hardly any airport in North America sells it. But guess it is a European company.
Sling 2 Pilot
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:53 pm

Re: 100LL

Post by Sling 2 Pilot »

FlyAgain wrote:I see my local airport (KFLY) has produced a set of bylaws laying down the gauntlet that "no owner shall bring gasoline onto the fold." Period. Dot, No discussion. Do not ask. Etc. Sort of blows the idea of the 30 gallon fuel caddy idea. The issue seems to stem from protecting the profits of the fuel seller not safety concerns.

Down the street is a one-off gas station that sells high octane ethanol free MOGAS. The airport is 100LL only of course, I see number of threads on workarounds with fuel additives and increased frequency of engine overhauls, etc. Has anyone just bit the bullet and burning 100LL Avgas in their Rotax engines 100% of the time? Still can't believe Rotax made a car gas engine when hardly any airport in North America sells it. But guess it is a European company.
Many have and do use auto fuel without major problems. Just follow ROTAX guidelines on the oil changes. Personally, I'd fill up the night before with my 5 gallon cans.
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: 100LL

Post by MrMorden »

I guess you have to park your car off the field?

BTW, Rotax engines are not "auto fuel engines", but rather "multifuel engines" You can use either auto fuel or 100LL, the only difference is that using 100LL means shorter oil change intervals (25hr vs 50hr) and shorter gearbox overhaul intervals (600hr vs 1000hr).
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
3Dreaming
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: 100LL

Post by 3Dreaming »

Regardless of local resolutions, if the airport has accepted federal funding they can not legally stop you from self fueling. If they do, they are risking future funding for the airport. They can impose reasonable safety restrictions that you will need to follow, like not fueling in a hangar, and establishing a self fueling area with grounding.
User avatar
ShawnM
Posts: 813
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:59 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL / KZPH

Re: 100LL

Post by ShawnM »

My airport, KZPH, just imposed a similar rule last month. You can bring your own fuel onto the field but they want you to pay them a 10¢ per gallon surcharge for every gallon you bring on to the airport property. My airport has a lot of trikes and gyros with Rotax engines so most of us use MOGAS and not 100LL. In fact I've never burned 100LL in the 5 years I've owned my LSA. I also get 93 OCT ethanol free fuel close to my house and take it to the airport. To me this is a double taxation being imposed on me by the airport. It's a very minimal fee but a double tax nonetheless.

They do have a safety rule that 3Dreaming pointed out in that you can't store fuel in containers in your hangar. I never do because I fuel the plane the moment I bring the fuel to the airport. I only store my four 5 gallon fuel cans empty in my hangar.

I'll never run 100LL unless I have no other choice for fuel. There are a few airport here that offer MOGAS.

I do need to check if my airport has accepted any federal funding, this will make it interesting for sure. I do know they were awarded a grant recently from the US Department of Transportation but I dont know if this is the same thing or not. Anyone?
TimTaylor
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: 100LL

Post by TimTaylor »

It's not double taxation because it's not a tax charged by a governmental agency. However, it is a fee that doesn't seem legal for an airport clearly receiving federal funds.
Retired from flying.
akroguy
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: 100LL

Post by akroguy »

I'd find another airport.

They wonder why GA is dying when they make it harder and harder to keep aviation affordable.
2006 Evektor Sportstar SE
E98 Los Lunas, NM
TimTaylor
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: 100LL

Post by TimTaylor »

Except that the FBO has to survive also. I would think that fuel sales are a significant part of their revenue and profit.
Retired from flying.
User avatar
drseti
Posts: 7227
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: 100LL

Post by drseti »

FlyAgain wrote:Has anyone just bit the bullet and burning 100LL Avgas in their Rotax engines 100% of the time?
Since ethanol-free mogas is not a available in my state (and I refuse to put solvents into a non-ethanol-approved airframe), I've run two Rotax 912ULS engines now on 100% 100LL, without any issues. I do double up on oil changes and gearbox inspections, but that's it. One made it all the way to TBO without problems, and its current owner continues to operate it on condition. The second one is now halfway to TBO, and I expect it to similarly make it all the way there, and beyond.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
TimTaylor
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: 100LL

Post by TimTaylor »

The Remos GX that I rent burns nothing but 100LL with no additives.
Retired from flying.
User avatar
ShawnM
Posts: 813
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:59 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL / KZPH

Re: 100LL

Post by ShawnM »

TimTaylor wrote:Except that the FBO has to survive also. I would think that fuel sales are a significant part of their revenue and profit.
Sure they do, then innovate and offer more services that will generate revenue. I never figured out why they dont offer a MOGAS option given the VERY LARGE number of Rotax powered aircraft on my field? This has been proposed before and they say they dont have the funds to install the infrastructure. My response is that it takes money to make money. Suck it up and install a pump or get a fuel truck dedicated to MOGAS. It's not rocket science. I'd gladly buy fuel on the field if they offered it. It sure beats lugging 5 gallon fuel containers full of highly flammable liquid in the back of my SUV all the way to the airport. :shock:
FlyAgain
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:00 pm

Re: 100LL

Post by FlyAgain »

It looks like a more recent set of rules went into place where they are charging a small fee per gallon for off airport gas, similar story as the other poster. Solves the problem I guess.
roger lee
Posts: 807
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:47 am
Location: Tucson, Az. Ryan Airfield (KRYN)

Re: 100LL

Post by roger lee »

If this is a public airport and receives federal funding like the majority do they can not prohibit alternate fuels and fueling. I took my airport to task on this and they lost. If an airport goes against the federal provisions they can loose their federal funding. If it is privately owned that may be a different story. Even fueling inside the airport. My airport tried to tell everyone they could not fuel between hangars and had to go out to a special area, but the airport fueled between hangars. Again I took them to task and they lost. The fire code usually states 25' of greater from a building. If it is a public airport they have to follow local fire codes. Most a round the nation say up to 10 gals. of flammable liquids which includes fuel, but if you have other flammable products in the hangar that is part of the total. The fire code says no fueling inside the hangar.
When they originally said we could not have auto fuel I reminded them of three other major provisions of the federal mandate and would loose all their federal funding they decided auto fuel was okay.

No the federal provisions, fire codes and local laws. Some people want to play dictator, but fail to know what's legal.
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
LSRM-A, Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
(520) 574-1080 (Home) Try Home First.
(520) 349-7056 (Cell)
3Dreaming
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: 100LL

Post by 3Dreaming »

ShawnM wrote:My airport, KZPH, just imposed a similar rule last month. You can bring your own fuel onto the field but they want you to pay them a 10¢ per gallon surcharge for every gallon you bring on to the airport property. My airport has a lot of trikes and gyros with Rotax engines so most of us use MOGAS and not 100LL. In fact I've never burned 100LL in the 5 years I've owned my LSA. I also get 93 OCT ethanol free fuel close to my house and take it to the airport. To me this is a double taxation being imposed on me by the airport. It's a very minimal fee but a double tax nonetheless.

They do have a safety rule that 3Dreaming pointed out in that you can't store fuel in containers in your hangar. I never do because I fuel the plane the moment I bring the fuel to the airport. I only store my four 5 gallon fuel cans empty in my hangar.

I'll never run 100LL unless I have no other choice for fuel. There are a few airport here that offer MOGAS.

I do need to check if my airport has accepted any federal funding, this will make it interesting for sure. I do know they were awarded a grant recently from the US Department of Transportation but I dont know if this is the same thing or not. Anyone?
Shawn, I am replying here instead of a PM. I am an airport manager, so I understand both sides of this. It is not uncommon for airports to charge a flowage fee for fuel. Many times the airport owns and maintains the fuel system that the FBO uses. Whether then can charge for fuel that you bring in your own equipment is a question for a lawyer.

The airport can not stop you from self fueling. They can not stop you from doing your own maintenance, though sometimes they try. In 20 plus years as an airport manager I have found it better to accommodate people that try to stop them. The benefits in the long run outweigh the negativity.

here is a FAA AC on the subject. https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/ ... b_appC.pdf
User avatar
ShawnM
Posts: 813
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:59 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL / KZPH

Re: 100LL

Post by ShawnM »

Thanks Roger and 3Dreaming for the info. Time to do my homework.
Post Reply