Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

H. Paul Shuch is a Light Sport Repairman with Maintenance ratings for airplanes, gliders, weight shift control, and powered parachutes, as well as an independent Rotax Maintenance Technician at the Heavy Maintenance level. He holds a PhD in Air Transportation Engineering from the University of California, and serves as Director of Maintenance for AvSport of Lock Haven.

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challenger2
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Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby challenger2 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:17 pm

New member—curious what group is seeing for the above? One quote in OHio came in at $1700 parts and $1500 labor. If engine is tightly cowled they may need to R&R engine to accomplish. Any info welcome. I have not yet purchased an LSA.

Nomore767
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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby Nomore767 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:53 pm

My mechanic quoted about $3000 to do the 5 year replacement coming for me this summer so your cost estimate seems to be in the ballpark.

He gives me a discount on this if I'm there to 'help' by:-
passing a tool
helping to remove or reinstall cowling
holding something
picking something up
sharing a Twix bar
getting him coffee
talking to the geezers that show all the time so he can get with the job

...every little helps!

challenger2
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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby challenger2 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:29 pm

Curious what u fly since one source said some engines need to be removed to replace hoses for tightly cowled rotax

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drseti
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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby drseti » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:20 pm

My observation is that the engine to firewall clearance of the Flight Designs is really tight, and it's probably easiest to pull the engine for rubber replacement. At the other extreme, in a Bristell you can drive a truck between the engine and the firewall! My SportStar is somewhere in between.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
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AvSport.org
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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby drseti » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:25 pm

Last rubber replacemend I did on a SportCruiser, materials cost around $1500, and labor took something like 20 hours. (That part varies greatly from one aircraft to the next). At my shop rate of $85/hour, the bill was something like $3200. So, that $3000 quote sounds about right.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:03 am

drseti wrote:My observation is that the engine to firewall clearance of the Flight Designs is really tight, and it's probably easiest to pull the engine for rubber replacement. At the other extreme, in a Bristell you can drive a truck between the engine and the firewall! My SportStar is somewhere in between.


I concur. I have done several Flight Design, and would never try and do one without removing the engine. That being said in my opinion the engine rubber mounts should be replaced also at 5 years. They may not be ready at 5 years, but will need it before 10 years.

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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby roger lee » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:55 am

I pull Flight Design engines because of the short nose and no access to the rear of the engine for hoses and you can't get to the rubber engine mounts. The longer nose aircraft the engine is left in place and hoses are usually easier to access. On those I hook up my engine hoist and lift the engine 2" to replace the engine mounts.
I always change rubber engine mounts at 5 years. Yo may not feel the vibration, but the engine and plane can. Plus you have no way of telling when the mounts are bad and if someone says when they get hard that is so far past replacement they screwed up. Some get fluids on them and get soft.
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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby MrMorden » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:13 pm

drseti wrote:Last rubber replacemend I did on a SportCruiser, materials cost around $1500, and labor took something like 20 hours. (That part varies greatly from one aircraft to the next). At my shop rate of $85/hour, the bill was something like $3200. So, that $3000 quote sounds about right.


$1500 seems really high, I think mine was $700-800 for materials. Did you use some kind of factory hose kit? I sources the parts myself and that could be the difference. 20 hours labor sounds about right.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:34 pm

MrMorden wrote:Did you use some kind of factory hose kit?


Yes. Depending on the aircraft, the rubber replacement can involve far more than just hoses. Rotax requires 5 year replacement of the mechanical fuel pump, coolant pressure tank bottom rubber, carb sockets and diaphragms, and airbox to carb attach tubes. Sparkplug boots need to be checked and sometimes replaced mid-cycle. Most airframe manufacturers require replacement of engine mounts. And those aircraft with wing tanks normally require replacement of the in-wing fuel lines. In addition, locally sourced automotive fuel, coolant, and oil hoses may not meet ASTM specs.

In the case of an SLSA, the manufacturer often provides an airframe-specific rubber replacement kit. In the case of an ELSA, it's still sometimes advisable to use the SLSA kit and service instructions, even though not necessarily required.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
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SportPilotExaminer.US

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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby ShawnM » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:37 pm

MrMorden wrote:
drseti wrote:Last rubber replacemend I did on a SportCruiser, materials cost around $1500, and labor took something like 20 hours. (That part varies greatly from one aircraft to the next). At my shop rate of $85/hour, the bill was something like $3200. So, that $3000 quote sounds about right.


$1500 seems really high, I think mine was $700-800 for materials. Did you use some kind of factory hose kit? I sources the parts myself and that could be the difference. 20 hours labor sounds about right.


Since I was the one paying the bill I also sourced my own hose and saved a bundle. I didn't pay anywhere near $1500 for a pile of new hose for my SportCruiser. That said, keep in mind the newer Rotax engines use that silicone fuel hose with compression fitted ends and those hoses are far more expensive than the simple Gates fuel line with an Oetiker clamp. This will certainly affect what one pays for the 5 year rubber change. We must compare apples to apples here.

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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:41 pm

But Shawn, (as stated above) it's not just the hoses we're talking about here. Where are you going to locally source your carb sockets and diaphragms, motor mounts, etc. - or did you decide not to replace them?

I also know of no local source for the required 90 and 45 degree bend hoses in the coolant system.

Bottom line: yes, you can save money by using generic hoses. But, consider the possible consequences. Loss of coolant in flight won't necessarily spell disaster, but may well result in warped heads. Loss of oil will most certainly result in the engine seizing, and an off-airport landing. But most serious is a fuel leak, which could potentially result in an in-flight engine fire. Are those risks really worth the few hundred dollars you can save every five years by locally sourcing hoses?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:50 pm

ShawnM wrote:far more expensive than the simple Gates fuel line with an Oetiker clamp.


Though fine for certified aircraft, Gates fuel lines are not necessarily Rotax authorized. Check your illustrated parts catalog.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:07 pm

drseti wrote:
ShawnM wrote:far more expensive than the simple Gates fuel line with an Oetiker clamp.


Though fine for certified aircraft, Gates fuel lines are not necessarily Rotax authorized. Check your illustrated parts catalog.


Rotax doesn't necessarily authorize fuel hoses. Normally hose specifications are set by the aircraft manufacture. As a side note on the older Ac fuel pumps supplied by Rotax with fuel lines attached the hoses were in fact Gates hoses.

Flight Design provides a DIN specification in their part manual. I use hoses that meet the DIN specification.

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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:13 pm

drseti wrote: I also know of no local source for the required 90 and 45 degree bend hoses in the coolant system.


Gates 28467 for the 90° hose. The radius is a little tighter, but the wall thickness matches the old Rotax supplied hose better that the newer Rotax 90° hose. I have had issues with the newer Rotax 90° hoses leaking because of the thinner wall thickness and inadequate clamping pressure with the original clamps. Rotax does have a new clamp, but they don't tell you need it anywhere.

Flight design doesn't use a 45° hose.

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Re: Rotax rubber hose 5 year replacement costs

Postby ShawnM » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:23 pm

drseti wrote:But Shawn, (as stated above) it's not just the hoses we're talking about here. Where are you going to locally source your carb sockets and diaphragms, motor mounts, etc. - or did you decide not to replace them?

I also know of no local source for the required 90 and 45 degree bend hoses in the coolant system.

Bottom line: yes, you can save money by using generic hoses. But, consider the possible consequences. Loss of coolant in flight won't necessarily spell disaster, but may well result in warped heads. Loss of oil will most certainly result in the engine seizing, and an off-airport landing. But most serious is a fuel leak, which could potentially result in an in-flight engine fire. Are those risks really worth the few hundred dollars you can save every five years by locally sourcing hoses?


Yes Paul, I changed my carbs sockets with new from Lockwood. They also rebuilt both my cards about 6 months prior because of another issue. The SportCruiser uses the green/white Barry mounts and I think all six were just under $60 online.

As far as hose goes, I wouldn't exactly call Gates hose "generic". I think Gates is the gold standard for hose these days. And as pointed out Rotax doesn't dictate the hose used, the manufacturer does. And since I'm also E-LSA, I get to pick a better hose with Gates. I used the Gates Barricade line of fuel hoses which is safe for any type of fuel with ethanol. I would never buy "generic" fuel hose for an airplane, that's asking for trouble. Gates makes every type, size and bend you can imagine in fuel, oil and coolant hoses, you just have to take the time and look for them. Mechanics dont do this because time is money to them and they are not paying the bill, they pass the saving on to the "customer".

I was able to buy most of the hose at my local O'Reilly Auto Parts as they carry Gates and what they didn't stock they ordered for me. :mrgreen:


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