commercial cost

Bob Mackey, Vice President of Falcon Insurance Agency (the official insurance agency for the EAA's Aircraft Insurance Plan), has graciously agreed to moderate this forum and answer your aircraft insurance questions. Thanks Bob!

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Cub flyer
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Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:30 pm

commercial cost

Postby Cub flyer » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:33 pm

Hi Bob. I posted some insurance stuff in the wrong forum.

I was wondering if you could look at the Hangar talk part of this site. I had the latest quote for our flight school and was wondering how it compared to others you may have seen.

It's posted under why there are few SP flight schools.

Seems pretty high to me but check it out.

Thanks

Charlie
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery

Bob Mackey
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Postby Bob Mackey » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:23 pm

Charlie,

I'll check it out...

Bob
Bob Mackey
Senior Vice President
Falcon Insurance Agency
(EAA Aircraft Insurance Plan)

Cub flyer
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Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:30 pm

renters

Postby Cub flyer » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:35 am

I guess my main question is:

If an airplane has no insurance at all. No liability and no hull.


Renter pilot buys a Renters policy for liability. Is the renter pilot covered for liability.

Bob Mackey
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Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:11 pm

Postby Bob Mackey » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:15 am

Charlie...

If the owner of an aircraft chooses to not obtain insurance (liability and/or hull insurance), I am not aware of any exclusions or conditions within the available non-owners (renters) insurance policies that would exclude or restrict insurance coverage for the policyhoder (i.e. the non-owner/renter who has purchased the insurance).

The aircraft owner would need to show neglience on the part of the non-owner in order to successfully pursue recovery fromthe non-owner's insurance. This very well may also require legal assistance.

Bob
Bob Mackey

Senior Vice President

Falcon Insurance Agency

(EAA Aircraft Insurance Plan)

Cub flyer
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Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:30 pm

Postby Cub flyer » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:53 am

Nobody seems to understand this. It is very simple.


Will the student who wrecks my airplane be covered by their renters liability insurance if they hurt someone or destroy property (not counting the airplane) ?


I an not trying to protect myself or my airplane. Just the Student/Renter.
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery

Bob Mackey
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Postby Bob Mackey » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:49 am

Charlie,

I sorry my response wasn't clear...

Subject to all of the terms and conditions of the non-owned aircraft insurance policy, the indiviudal aircraft non-owner who purchases non-owned aircraft insurance policy will have insurance under the non-owned aircraft insurance policy when the policyholder is flying an aircraft they do not own and that meets the definition of a non-owned aircraft in the non-owned aircraft insurance policy regardless of the fact that there is or is not an aircraft insurance policy in force for the aircraft owner.

Bob
Bob Mackey

Senior Vice President

Falcon Insurance Agency

(EAA Aircraft Insurance Plan)

Cub flyer
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:30 pm

ok

Postby Cub flyer » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:30 pm

Sounds like I'll have to read an example policy for the renters.

I think above means yes the renter/studen is insured depending on the terms of their policy.

Thanks Bob.

Jeff Tipton
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Location: Dickson, TN

Postby Jeff Tipton » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:30 pm

The renter/pilot would be covered up to the limits of their policy. If the owner has insurance on the aircraft the renter/pilot may only be liable for the deductable. Would largely depend on the cause of the accident. If the owner has no insurance they may be attached to any lawsuits as a result of the accident. IE they may have to pay expenses above the limits of the renter/pilot policy.

Cub flyer
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Postby Cub flyer » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:06 pm

Anybody have any example cases of this happening.

No insurance on the airplane or business and there is an accident.

Lawsuits take the business and or owners assets.



Maule sells airplanes without any insurance

Most if not all skydive operations have none.

Many high risk activities. rafting, skiing, parasailing etc. all use waivers and nothing else.

So do we really need it? Real world examples please.
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery

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tadel001
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Postby tadel001 » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:28 am

Cub Flyer,

I don't have any examples but I can give the litigation perspective.

A renter (at least in most jurisdictions) is only liable to someone they injury while acting negligent. If a renter takes your plane on a cross-country, crashes into a house and someone gets hurt, that person can only collect against the renter if the accident was caused by the renter's negligence. So yes, your renter is protected if they have insurance from claims of negligence.

Now, does it matter whether the aircraft has underlying insurance. I have never seen that be an issue and I don't think it would be an issue. The renter's insurance is primary so the owned insurance would only apply after renter's insurance is exhausted.

Bob, isn't the hull insurance on a non-owned policy non-fault? So if the aircraft is damaged while in the possession of the renter, insurance pays regardless of whether the damage was caused by negligence?

Cub flyer
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Postby Cub flyer » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:13 pm

The best I have found so far is a large flight school with some old and some new airplanes.

They're at

$4145 for a Aeronca Champ $25,000 hull
$4400 for a Zlin Savage at $68,000 hull
$4840 for a 1975 Cessna 172M $52,000 hull

All insured with AIG. No pilot restrictions. Any student or better on all airplanes.

I can understand the 172 being higher due to more seats. These numbers are nearly 1/2 what I was being quoted. I don't know why our broker was so expensive and adding so many limitations due to Sport pilots flying.

The Champ is much cheaper to replace the whole airplane than the Savage. Savage replacement part assemblies are cheaper. Not the airframe parts but completed covered units like wing panels should be available from the factory. The champ you need to buy the parts and then have them covered by a mechanic.

I'm not sure why the zlin Savage is not much more expensive than the Champ to insure. Liability should be the same but maybe since it is over the liability age limit they figure there are not any other pockets. The Savage importer probably has some liability insurance and it would share the cost of any accident.

Are old champs allowed to install parts from a new LSA champ? They say part 23 but are the being produced that way. Looking at the propeller being used on the new production models I would say no.

BOMOD
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Location: Sutter Creek / Sacramento, CA

Postby BOMOD » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:26 am

Right or wrong after it is all done and finished ... If you get sued because you own the plane ... who is going to pay all those legal expenses to make sure your assets are protected while the suit is wandering through the legal system? With no insurance you can incur thousands, tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal expenses just to prove it ain't your problem. Liability insurance doesn't cover just the $ you are insured for, it covers the legal expenses to protect that amount so that the insurance company does not have to pay it out. No insurance, no liability coverage and NO LEGAL EXPENSE COVERAGE.
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