Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

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rgstubbsjr
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Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby rgstubbsjr » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:03 pm

Hello,
A couple of weeks ago, I was hanger flying with a couple of guys working towards their Light Sport certs. I suggested that they should look into the Wings Program, as they have some nice courses, and the break on insurance is nothing to sneeze at.
Both students explained that their instructors refuse to be involved, and won't sign off on anything in Wings.
Curious.
Yesterday, I was accosted by one of the instructors who RAGED at me, telling me to mind my own business, stop meddling in his business and shut up about Wings and stop talking to his student.
After showing the CFI the door, and calling his student to let him know he should seriously look for a different instructor, I got to thinking.
What does a student do if his CFI refuses to take the time to sign off on the Wings checkpoints?
Anyone have an answer?
Please tell me there is an "alternate route". I really, really don't want to have to go back to work, just so I sign people off for this program.

Thanks

Shep

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drseti
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby drseti » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:04 pm

Definitely, the first thing the student should do is find another CFI!

To the second point, let me emphasize that any CFI can sign off on WINGS activities, not just the one who instructs the applicant. I routinely sign off WINGS and AMT award credit for anyone who views any of my qualifying webinars (whether live or on instant replay). Here is the link I give out with instructions for receiving credit:

http://avsport.org/webinars/credit.htm
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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rgstubbsjr
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby rgstubbsjr » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:28 pm

Thanks for the answer.
It turns out there are people who have been flying for a few years and their CFI never signed them off after getting their certs
It's a shame every CFI isn't on board with this program.
I don't have a whole lot of use for much of what the FAA does, but this program is well done.

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Half Fast
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby Half Fast » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:25 pm

Paul, any idea why the airspace endorsement for Sport Pilots doesn't qualify for Wings credit? I just finished the endorsement a few weeks ago and it would be nice to be able to apply it toward Wings.

It doesn't look like there's much attention to Sport in approved Wings training. Adding another aircraft, like say weight shift or rotorcraft, doesn't qualify either.

I asked our local FAA guy but his answer was uninformative and less than satisfactory.
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:01 am

It all depends on the flight school, Half. Mine is an FAA Approved WINGS training provider (I had to jump through some hoops to make that happen). My curriculum for several of my short courses (including Airspace Ace) has been approved for an entire phase of WINGS. See, for example:

http://avsport.org/about/airspace.htm

(Scroll down toward the bottom of the page).

You can see which specific flight and ground activity categories I had to include in my curriculum. Other flight schools could do this too, if they so chose.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:11 am

Half Fast wrote:It doesn't look like there's much attention to Sport in approved Wings training.


Sadly true, because WINGS approved courses have to be developed by FAA Safety Team reps, and not that many of us are part of the LSA revolution. All of my EAA webinars, however, are approved for WINGS credit. And many of them are Sport Pilot or LSA related. See:

http://avsport.org/webinars/credit.htm

Adding another aircraft, like say weight shift or rotorcraft, doesn't qualify either.


It doesn't have to, because adding a new rating satisfies the requirements for a flight review (which is worth far more than just a few WINGS credits). When I did my seaplane rating a couple of years back, it reset my BFR counter.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
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Half Fast
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby Half Fast » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:43 am

drseti wrote:It doesn't have to, because adding a new rating satisfies the requirements for a flight review (which is worth far more than just a few WINGS credits). When I did my seaplane rating a couple of years back, it reset my BFR counter.


Oh, I didn't realize that. Cool!

It POs me a bit about the airspace endorsement, since that required ground instruction, a couple of flights, and multiple takeoffs and landings at different airports. When I asked the FAA rep about it, he didn't even seem to understand what I was talking about. Pretty sad.
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:57 am

Half Fast wrote:It POs me a bit about the airspace endorsement, since that required ground instruction, a couple of flights, and multiple takeoffs and landings at different airports.


It wouldn't help with WINGS credit, but the requirements for a flight review are a minimum of one hour of flight instruction (no particular maneuvers specified), and one hour of ground instruction (which must include training on FARs). If your airspace training met those requirements, why not ask the instructor to also sign you off for a flight review? He or she should surely understand that, even if not a WINGS promoter.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:07 am

drseti wrote: It doesn't have to, because adding a new rating satisfies the requirements for a flight review (which is worth far more than just a few WINGS credits). When I did my seaplane rating a couple of years back, it reset my BFR counter.


Adding a category or class at the sport pilot level does not count as a flight review, as it does at other pilot levels. Only a checkride with a DPE resets the clock on a BFR. That being said either the recommending instructor or the instructor doing the proficiency check could if they chose include a flight review as part of the process, but it is not automatic.

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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:26 am

3Dreaming wrote: either the recommending instructor or the instructor doing the proficiency check could if they chose include a flight review as part of the process, but it is not automatic.


Thanks for the clarification, Tom. Yes, that is exactly the route I took, and the instructor was entirely cooperative. But you're right, one has to ask.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
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Half Fast
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby Half Fast » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:37 am

drseti wrote:
Half Fast wrote:It POs me a bit about the airspace endorsement, since that required ground instruction, a couple of flights, and multiple takeoffs and landings at different airports.


It wouldn't help with WINGS credit, but the requirements for a flight review are a minimum of one hour of flight instruction (no particular maneuvers specified), and one hour of ground instruction (which must include training on FARs). If your airspace training met those requirements, why not ask the instructor to also sign you off for a flight review? He or she should surely understand that, even if not a WINGS promoter.



That wouldn't be a problem but also wouldn't help much. I won't be due for a BFR until Nov 2019, so having one in Jan 2018 only nets a couple of months. OTOH, if I had Wings credit, I could wait until, say, Dec 2018 to finish the Wings phase and reset the BFR clock by 13 months.
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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:13 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
drseti wrote: It doesn't have to, because adding a new rating satisfies the requirements for a flight review (which is worth far more than just a few WINGS credits). When I did my seaplane rating a couple of years back, it reset my BFR counter.


Adding a category or class at the sport pilot level does not count as a flight review, as it does at other pilot levels. Only a checkride with a DPE resets the clock on a BFR. That being said either the recommending instructor or the instructor doing the proficiency check could if they chose include a flight review as part of the process, but it is not automatic.

When I got my Sport Pilot seaplane rating at Jack Brown's, it did not count as a Flight Review.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:25 pm

TimTaylor wrote:When I got my Sport Pilot seaplane rating at Jack Brown's, it did not count as a Flight Review.


I did mine there as well, a couple of years ago. I specifically asked to be signed off for a BFR, and they were happy to oblige. So, one need only ask. Remember, a BFR requires only an hour of flight, and an hour of ground which includes FARs - all of which the ASEL add-on includes (plus, of course, a logbook endorsement).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:21 pm

drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:When I got my Sport Pilot seaplane rating at Jack Brown's, it did not count as a Flight Review.


I did mine there as well, a couple of years ago. I specifically asked to be signed off for a BFR, and they were happy to oblige. So, one need only ask. Remember, a BFR requires only an hour of flight, and an hour of ground which includes FARs - all of which the ASEL add-on includes (plus, of course, a logbook endorsement).

I was not rated in the aircraft until I finished my endorsement ride. I felt including the endorsement as a flight review was somewhat of a grey area and chose not to do it that way.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Re: Wing progam and recalcitrant CFI

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:35 pm

drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:When I got my Sport Pilot seaplane rating at Jack Brown's, it did not count as a Flight Review.


I did mine there as well, a couple of years ago. I specifically asked to be signed off for a BFR, and they were happy to oblige. So, one need only ask. Remember, a BFR requires only an hour of flight, and an hour of ground which includes FARs - all of which the ASEL add-on includes (plus, of course, a logbook endorsement).


Paul, I am going to have to disagree with you on this. Adding a category at any other level than sport pilot would automatically count as a flight review, but sport pilot is different. The only way adding a category at the sport pilot level can be counted as a flight review is if you do the proficiency check with a designated examiner.

The training for adding a category can not be used for a flight review, because you are not yet rated in the aircraft. Being rated in the aircraft is a requirement per 61.56. Doing a proficiency check with an other instructor as allowed by regulation does not count as a flight review.


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